They're done with her

Yesterday came the shocking news that a major fund raiser for Clinton -- who had raised about $500,000 for her -- was now supporting and working for Obama.  This fund raiser had longstanding ties to the Clintons, as he was appointed to an ambassadorship by Bill Clinton.

Now it turns out that he was far from alone.  

The Washington Post reports today that

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2008/04/25/AR2008042503707_ pf.html
Campaign finance records released this week show that a growing number of Clinton's early supporters migrated to Obama in March, after he achieved 11 straight victories. Of those who had previously made maximum contributions to Clinton, 73 wrote their first checks to Obama in March. The reverse was not true: Of those who had made large contributions to Obama last year, none wrote checks to Clinton in March.

Why have these donors moved to Obama?  Two main reasons:

1. Delegate math is clear. Clinton can't win and the on-going fight is hurting the party.

2. Clinton has gotten way too negative for them. Her campaign hasn't focused on the future, but on tearing down Obama.

"I think she is destroying the Democratic Party," said New York lawyer Daniel Berger, who had backed Clinton with the maximum allowable donation of $2,300. "That there's no way for her to win this election except by destroying [Obama], I just don't like it. So in my own little way, I'm trying to send her a message."
The message came in the form of a $2,300 contribution to Obama."

Another donor found Clinton's approach very troublesome.

The Obama converts include William Louis-Dreyfus. The billionaire New York financier said he had been impressed by Clinton's performance in the Senate and distressed by eight years of the Bush administration when he donated the maximum to her campaign last August. Then, he said, he began watching more closely.

"However much one might have supported the Clintons, or one might support the usual suspects in the Democratic Party, I began to believe Obama represents a new approach. He gives off such a sense of relevance that he's sort of irresistible," Louis-Dreyfus said.

He also expressed, as did other big givers who crossed to Obama, exasperation about the tone of the Clinton campaign and frustration with the candidate herself.

"At the end of the day, all she had to do was open her mouth for me not to believe her," Louis-Dreyfus said.

So - as you see - more and more people have made the judgment that Clinton has been the more negative campaigner and her chances are not only done, but her campaign is hurting the party.



Display:


Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 3)

March?  Ah, check the calendar, this is nearly May. That was a different time and place in this contest.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:57:04 AM EST

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 1)

NO YESTERDAY:
Gabriel Guerra-Mondragón served as an ambassador to Chile during Bill Clinton's presidency, considered himself a close friend of Sen. Clinton, and became a "Hill-raiser" by bringing in about $500,000 for her presidential bid.

He DEFECTED yesterday!


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:00:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 4)

Who cares what some fat assed big donor did?  You really think its a bonus that Obama has yet another insider bundler?  I bet you'd also think then that its a bigger thing than the 80K new donors that Cliton just brought in raising $10M. Geez, get your priorities straight.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:10:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

C'mon (2.00 / 0)

You know she's being bled dry. You know she's being abandoned. You read more than just your own site.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:13:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Apparently they thinks so. BO better pull ads (none / 0)

From more of those donors writing big check in March.

Sen. Obama accepted more money from oil company executives in March than any other candidate, while he ran an ad saying he didn't take money from oil companies. Sen. Barack Obama continued accepting donations from oil company executives and employees in March even as he aired ads in which he stated he took no oil company money, his campaign finance reports show. Obama has taken at least $263,000 from oil company executives, family members and employees since entering the presidential race last year, including $46,000 last month. At least $140,000 has come in chunks of between $1,000 and $2,300, the maximum permitted under federal law." [LA Times, 4/24/08]
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la- na-money24apr24,0,2613458.story

woohoooo.....lets celebrate.   lmao


by LindaSFNM on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:24:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 1)

I'll believe the $10 million in a day when the finance reports come out.

In the past, the Clinton campaign made fund-raising claims that didn't stand up.  We'll find out how much of that money was for the general election from maxed out donors.  And we'll find out if bundlers asked donors to wait to contribute and then to contribute through the web site.

It's possible it's all true - but, given the Clinton campaign's track record on this, I can't trust that they're telling the truth.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:36:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 1)

Me too.  For two consecutive months they've done this!- released an impressive fundraising total only to have it turn out that most of the money is earmarked for her Senate campaign or includes money she's loaned herself.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:09:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)

Very disingenuous Jerome.

You know very well that every big donor is welcome.

You also know that any slippage to Obama adds to the argument of his momentum.

Not lastly, you know that a big donor leaving Obama for her, would bring a huge smile to your face and hers.

It's tragic that objectivity has entirely disappeared from your analysis regarding this "fat assed big donor".

Even the $10M hardly gets her campaign out of debt.  Shame on you for losing all perspective.


Obama: June 3, 2008. Historic.
by jv on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:01:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This fellow is a fraud (none / 0)

Grendel

I suggest that you are a lying fraud and/or breach professional ethics by making these claims about your former law "partner"

If you're real, I hope that he sues your sorry self.

Anyways, kudos on your strategy of boosting Dems fortunes and increasing the likelihood of success in November.  

It's a "ood thing" you don't have similar concerns about "publicity" that apparently handcuffed your alleged former "partners".  Disgraceful.


Obama: June 3, 2008. Historic.
by jv on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:08:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This fellow is a fraud (none / 0)

What sort of legal theory do you suggest the partner sue under?  Doesn't sound to me like there is a plausible claim.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 03:52:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This fellow is a fraud (none / 0)

it's called slander.
there is also an ethical obligation on lawyers not to make public insults about another lawyer.
Obama: June 3, 2008. Historic.
by jv on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow. (none / 0)

Now I see why MyDD has gone so negative.  Maybe you might show some leadership with the tone, Jerome.  The diarist obviously touches a raw nerve, so I'm sure that its significance wasn't lost on you.

Nice diary, politicsmatters.  Rec'd!!


by haystax calhoun on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 1)

except for you are completely ignoring what this news, added with the fact a major donor just switched. will do to super delegate perceptions.

its all about perceptions and right now for Hillary who just won PA, these are alot of BAD news cycles for her.

she rose $10 million in 24 hrs, but do you think she is going to pay her bills with it? nope so we already see MORE bad cycles will come, if she doesn't pay those bills this month May will be even worse for her.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:00:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 0)

The $10 million doesn't do much for a campaign that's $15 million in debt.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 2)

The only reason Clinton's campaign is in debt is because it has to keep up in the arms war against Obama, who has massively outspent her. In any other election cycle, her money raising ability would be unprecedented.

We all know that Obama appeal best to the most affluent and elite segment of the Democratic Party, and that's why he has such a tremendous fundraising ability, compared to Hillary. His success on that score is really at bottom nothing more than a class thing, with the elites finding still another path to get their way. If they have to outspend Hillary and the working class to do it, that's just what they are used to doing -- that's how it always works for them.

But of course the irony is that Obama just can't seem to deliver, despite the simply overwhelming effort of his elite supporters, the media, the party elders, and virtually every other significant segment of the political and social establishment. All this outside help and propping up, and the man has completely petered out?

To me, that pretty much defines a political loser.


by frankly0 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:40:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 1)

We all know that Obama appeal best to the most affluent and elite segment of the Democratic Party, and that's why he has such a tremendous fundraising ability, compared to Hillary.

Ummm.... That isn't true.  His average donation is much smaller than hers.  I thought it was a well known fact that Hillary has gotten a larger share of her money from large donors, and Obama a larger share from small donors, but here you are saying the opposite.  


Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)

Losing one in a row equals petering out?  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:15:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)

The fact is, I'm sure that no major contender has ever had to spend more money per vote than has Obama.

Yes, he's raised a stupendous amount of money from his many well-heeled supporters. He has outspent Hillary by 2-1 or more. But what does he have to show for this, but a campaign that has completely stalled out in winning over voters -- the one and only true goal in this process?

If I were an Obama supporter, I'd be pretty disgusted that my money was being spent to so little effect. The return on investment could hardly be worse at this stage. Obama is like an dotcom startup that requires massive amounts of money to reach profitability, and when it does, the payoff is paltry.

How much money -- and how many endorsements and how much favorable media coverage -- does this man need to be carried across the finish line? What viability and clout will the man have left if and when he does manage to cross that line first?


by frankly0 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:25:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)

He's won two of the last three contests, two of them by huge margins.

Meanwhile, Clinton couldn't break double digits in a state that was demographically tailor made for her and in which there's one of the last strong political machines and the machine supported her.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)

Oh please, 2 of the last three contests?

Spin much?

What were those two of three -- one caucus in WY and the other in the AA rich and GOP dominated Mississippi?

Yeah, those are the sort of contests that are going to show his strength in the general, and demonstrate his broader clout.

And Obama had 6 long weeks to outspend Hillary, splurging vastly more money than anyone else in the history of PA politics on ads, not to mention a disgracefully biased press in his favor, as well as major national party officials on his side -- with calls for Hillary to drop out, to face her supposedly obvious ultimate defeat -- and the man could not deliver. His performance with the Reagan Democrats was an embarrassment for someone who needs absolutely to carry them in significant numbers if he's to win the general.


by frankly0 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:56:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)

not to mention a disgracefully biased press in his favor

Right, the disgracefully biased press that focused on "bitter" for a solid week.  I guess it's true that we all see what we want to see.


Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:09:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She's not going to win the nomination, Jerome. (none / 0)

The game was over when she couldn't hold her near 20% lead in PA as recently as 3/5-3/15.

With the manner in which she's running, all she's currently accomplishing is poisoning the well (as was clear from exit polls) for Obama and the Democratic party in the general election.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)

Dude, this is front page of the Washington Post, today.  Sorry.


by Led Nudd on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:50:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)


 Strange.... why more Democrats are voting for her.
Wisdom Is The Reward For Listening Over A Lifetime
by gunner on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:58:15 AM EST

Re: They're done with her (1.50 / 2)

Women are propping Hillary up.  These women don't care how ugly Hillary gets because she is a woman.  It is so sad that their first women who has a chance to be president is such a terrible candidate.  I hope that women begin to understand that there are much better women candidates who will be a much better woman president than Hillary.  I would rather wait for the right woman than support the Clintons who have run the most negative campaign I have ever seen.


by Spanky on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:12:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 0)

LOLWHUT?  Clinton über-pwns Obama by like 0.03% if you assume none of the "uncommitted" folks in MI would have chosen Obama.


by username2 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:15:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, they're not. Obama leads the popular vote (2.00 / 1)

by 600K in properly held contests.

Even if we include:

  1. the beauty contest result from FL
  2. the non-contest result in MI using the exit polls of how they would've voted had everyone been on th ballot
Obama is still ahead by 250K votes and HRC is not expected to overcome that margin. See my sigline.

In other words, she is neither going to win the pledged delegates (the metric of "popular will" in the system designed by the Democratic party) nor the popular vote (which was never meant to mean anything in the race for the nomination).


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:17:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 1)

If you are going to only count the votes of registered democrats for  our candidates and surrender all of the registered republicans and independents to the GOP then you're going to watch the GE become not competitive even faster than the nomination race did.

Also, your insistence on claiming that Hilary leads in the popular vote by refusing to add caucus votes to the tally and then further pretending that none of the Michigan voters are Obama voters (even though your beloved SUSA EV tracker shows Barack beating your candidate in Michigan) then you are putting the lie to the argument that all of the votes in Michigan and Florida must be counted or it's an illegitimate nomination.  

No matter.  It is a stupid, dishonest, and desperate argument anyway.  Popular vote is not a legitimate metric in the nomination contest.  Everyone knows that.  If you actually do count the caucuses, Obama leads in that metric anyway.  Most states don't wind up getting a say in the nomination process anyway.  It's S.O.P..  That was the motivation for the 2 states to break the rules in the first place.  To pretend like this is some horrible, abnormal, exception is transparent silliness.  Nobody was disenfranchised.  Most states don't get a say, most of the time.

So, aside from the most donors to switch to the opponent metric, Barack is beating her in EVERY stat that you can measure.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:49:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

nothing new (none / 0)

it also goes the other way which Obamafans would know if they weren't so naive and inexperienced.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:00:45 AM EST

Re: nothing new (2.00 / 1)

Actually it doesn't, if you read the article.

This is a big deal; I know you and Jerome and others realize that. Clinton got lots of establishment support early on, but despite all the crap thrown at him, Obama is drawing people to his candidacy -- including those who I imagine you'd believe "know better."

I'm really beat by these "naivite or inexperience" comments directed at Obama supporters -- that's the kind of demeaning crap that makes it impossible for some Clinton supporters here and elsewhere to see outside their own spin.

This article isn't about those specific "inside bundlers" but offers a suggestion as to the thinking of the superdels who likely share these contributors' thinking. I'm certain y'all know that, and can understand its significance.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:21:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nothing new (none / 0)

And one could say that if Clinton supporters weren't so old and near to dementia, they would be able to see the writing on the wall.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Bill Clinton
by venician on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You may think this is clever, (none / 0)

even funny.  But Obama is supposed to be a candidate of hope - are you saying he is - except for seniors, women and working class.  Fine - but let him be honest in his performance.

As to wall writing - we've spent a lot of time in our lives cleaning up after graffiti - nothing new.


by Xanthe on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:00:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Heh... (none / 0)

As to wall writing - we've spent a lot of time in our lives cleaning up after graffiti - nothing new.

Daniel 5:1-31


by kraant on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In order to accept your (none / 0)

post - one has to consider Barack a great prophet - I do not, though many here do.  He is a politician, nothing more - nothing less.

Heh.


by Xanthe on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN (none / 0)

It's writing on the wall, that thing you wanted to wash away, not a prophet.


by kraant on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and you're comparing (none / 0)

God's word with political posturing.  Daniel was an outsider - not someone that was chosen by a certain segment of the ruling party.


by Xanthe on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:46:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nothing new (2.00 / 1)

Must suck having a nominee so pathetic as to lose (badly) to a man supported only by us naive and inexperienced folks.

Please list your experience and education if you will.  This way we can all strive to become more like you in selecting ourselves a broke, unlikeable, liar, who was on the wrong side of what is possibly the largest foreign policy disaster in 230 years of our nation's history.  She didn't even learn from it either.  She cast the same damn vote for a war in Iran!!

But, we're the naive one, huh?  At least we aren't pompous to the point of self delusion.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:57:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nothing new (none / 0)

It's amazing how the naive and inexperienced flock to the elitist contender.

TeresaInPa never brings common sense to these discussions, but she has lots of experience.


Obama: June 3, 2008. Historic.
by jv on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 1)

oh and by the way said canadian girl - "BO has been negative and really turned me off"  that's why she donated the maximum today to HRC's campaign.

that's snark, but you get the point.


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:01:01 AM EST

Re: They're done with her (2.00 / 1)

that's why she donated the maximum today to HRC's campaign.

I hope this isn't true, because if it is, it's just sad.  You realize this is just paying Mark Penn's bills and repaying Hillary Clinton's self-loan.  Kind of like buying passage on the Titanic after it has hit the iceberg.
by username2 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

hedging their bets? (2.00 / 1)

LOL....so what, this was on a conference call, a talking point memo?

Oh, how funny.  
BREAKING NEWS....ITS TWO MONTHS OLD.lmao

As I put in the other diary that hurried to write these same talking points.  The same donors have been giving.  But at least Hillary's vote doesn't get bought.  You know, like Obama's, nuke, coal, energy Bill(big Oil giveaway),trade (voted to weaken trade agreements), Financial (voted against capping interest), et al

AND...since these two months ago.....HILLARY HAS BEEN WINNING ALL THE ELECTIONS!!!!  

President Hillary, President Hillary, President Hillary will the the chanting all the way to Pennsylvania Avenue Jan 20, 2009!  WoooHOO!


by LindaSFNM on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:09:57 AM EST

On a not completely related note (2.00 / 2)

This strikes me as "magical thinking" whereby if you wish for something hard enough you feel as if you can will it so.

The hard reality is that right or wrong, the Clinton campaign is likely nearing the end.  The numbers speak for themselves and Hillary, being very experienced in politics knows that.  She is no one's fool.


accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking
by Sychotic1 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:17:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On a not completely related note (none / 0)

But many fools are hers, and she has debts to repay.  Though there is that small matter of the pony they were promised...


by username2 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:20:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

auh yes, show us your colors (none / 0)

Facts aren't what you like, so again,lets resort to name calling.  Don't even you all get tired of this tactic?

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. by Mahatma Gandhi."

...the win is just around the corner!


by LindaSFNM on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:26:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: auh yes, show us your colors (2.00 / 1)

I grew up in NM, and would love to live in SF, but...  You Clinton dead-enders are somewhere between pathetic and precious.

Care to put your money where your mouth is, and help me pay my rent? ;)


by username2 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:34:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey, let's not let reality get in the way (none / 0)

of your fantasy, huh?  lol

Helloooo...Hillary has been the one winning the elections....????  Did you close your eyes and turn off the news after these donations started coming in, before Ohio, TX, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania?

Just start saying it, President Hillary.  It's a good thing.


by LindaSFNM on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:28:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey, let's not let reality get in the way (none / 0)

Love the way you leave out other elections from that period. Cherry pick away - It won't help your candidate's chances to get the nomination.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:30:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The funny bit is that I am actually a fence setter (none / 0)

but over here on myDD I am always lumped in with the Obama supporters because I say inconvenient things.


accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking
by Sychotic1 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:36:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hedging their bets? (none / 0)

and a little more reality.

From more of those donors writing big check in March.

Sen. Obama accepted more money from oil company executives in March than any other candidate, while he ran an ad saying he didn't take money from oil companies. Sen. Barack Obama continued accepting donations from oil company executives and employees in March even as he aired ads in which he stated he took no oil company money, his campaign finance reports show. Obama has taken at least $263,000 from oil company executives, family members and employees since entering the presidential race last year, including $46,000 last month. At least $140,000 has come in chunks of between $1,000 and $2,300, the maximum permitted under federal law." [LA Times, 4/24/08]
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la- na-money24apr24,0,2613458.story


by LindaSFNM on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:29:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hedging their bets? (2.00 / 1)

If you are not a registered lobbyist or PAC Obama will accept your donation. Other then lobbyists your job description will not preclude you from making a donation no matter what company or industry employs you.

Should he ban anyone employed in the energy industry or banking or wall street or anyone with any job at all since every company has a vested interest in what President Obama might do? Obama does not take lobbyist money and unlike McCain and Clinton he does not have lobbyists running his campaign. You won't see Obama's spouse and campaign staff accepting $$$ 100's of thousands to work against the policies that the candidate espouses.

Yes private citizens who make donations have jobs. Surprise, surprise.


by hankg on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:14:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your "reality" (none / 0)

has a distinct spin toward smear as you fail to point out that there is a world of difference in taking money from oil companies (which is prohibited by law) or PACs that lobby for the interests of oil companies and accepting donations from INDIVIDUALS who just happen to work for oil companies.

A PAC contribution implies that some strings are attached to the gift.  A contribution from an individual (even big-dog executives) merely that a person is merely expressing his or her preference for a candidate.


Anybody got any mixers? - Zaphod Beeblebrox.
by UrbanRedneck on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:43:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton's the negative one (2.00 / 1)

What really, really struck me are the REASONS why they folks don't support Clinton.]

She's too negative.  They don't trust her. And she's hurting the party.

"At the end of the day, all she had to do was open her mouth for me not to believe her," Louis-Dreyfus said."

Clinton supporters can keep repeating the talking points that it's Obama's folks who have been more negative -- but they should realize that most people disagree. Superdelegates disagree. People who voted in Democratic contests disagree (as exit polls show). And so do these donors.

And these folks have brains of their own and see what Clinton has said and done.  It may make some people feel good to claim that the media has duped everyone, but that's an awfully -- elitist -- not to mention -- condencending -- thing to say.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:29:46 AM EST

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)


At the end of the day, all she had to do was open her mouth for me not to believe her," Louis-Dreyfus said.

Ouch.  But quite accurate nonetheless.


by baghdadjoe on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:34:07 AM EST

Silly Obamites (none / 0)

I read the incessant droning of anti-hope and anger, and all I see is this:

Our candidate can't win unless your gal quits.  And please don't criticize him.  He's delicate.

Winners Don't Yap. :)


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:00:09 AM EST

Re: Silly Obamites (2.00 / 1)

Bob,

I love that video but you'd have a lot more credibility if you spoke up against the constant stream of taunting and vitriol from a small fringe of HRC supporters that makes up the Rec list here.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly Obamites (none / 0)

Well, I sometimes do, but I am biased in terms of how much attention I give to various topics.  I have themes in mind that I try to highlight.  A lot of times the extremist Hillarista posts you refer to just don't have anything to do with my themes (which is unfortunate because I think my themes are the ones we would benefit most from focusing on :p).

If I see someone bashing an Obama supporter that has been perfectly reasonable, I will sometimes chide the Hillarista, for what it's worth.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:50:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly Obamites (none / 0)

Fair enough.  As for focus, when the nomination is settled in a couple months I think the site will return to sanity no matter who the nominee is.  The fringe posters will overreach and be banned.  I don't think the admins have any desire for this site to become a launching pad for attacks against the Dem nominee.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly Obamites (none / 0)

Yes, I think you're right there.

I've already planned my strategy out.  If my candidate wins, I plan to work very hard to be gracious and concilliatory, and will TR overzealous gloating posts as fast as I can.  If my candidate loses, I'm going to take a time-out and not come here for a week or two, so that I can settle down and avoid the last of the extremism.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:43:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

Actually right know the odds are 95% that Obama is going to win regardless of what Clinton does. Hillary's campaign has announced the tide was turning more times then Baghdad Bob.

Party insiders don't care about the election going until PR. It could have been a good thing for party building. They are concerned about the nasty Rovian campaign Hillary is running because it can make it so neither candidate can win.

Hillary has been inflicting more damage on herself with her negative campaign then Obama. Her negatives are through the roof and rising. In exit polls even many of her own voters don't trust her and blame her for a negative campaign. So even if by some miracle she could destroy Obama and win the nomination she would be by then completely unelectable. The youth vote, independents and the AA vote are a bigger component of Democratic victories then Reagan Democrats who have been voting Republican for years anyway.

The supers don't care who is at the top of the ticket as long as it's a winner. It's not the length of the campaign it's the nastiness that has them concerned. Of course at this site they will blame Obama for that but by a very large majority voters polled and defecting Hillary donors and supporters see Hillary's kitchen sink do anything to win strategy as the problem.


by hankg on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:31:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

Her negatives have risen a lot because the Obama campaign has devoted itself to character destruction and below-the-belt, ad hominem attacks.  For the most part, her campaign has resisted the temptation to do that.

Hillary's campaign has announced the tide was turning more times then Baghdad Bob.

I thought this was especially short-sighted of you: how many times has the media declared this contest over, so far?

For a real laugh, check out the media's 1992 coverage of Bill Clinton's campaign in June.  In many cases it is word-for-word.  Thankfully Clinton and his supporters ignored the punditocracy, and we got our only Democratic White House in the past two decades as a result.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:48:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

Her negatives have risen a lot because the Obama campaign has devoted itself to character destruction and below-the-belt, ad hominem attacks.

I think her negatives have risen because voters think she has gone more negative, and unfairly negative, than Obama.  That is born out in the exit polling where 2/3 of voters thought her attacks were unfair.


Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

That's clearly what voters have perceived.

But I make reference to what has actually been done.  Several media pundits have worked very diligently to maintain the illusion that Barack's campaign has been positive and Hillary's negative.  And you'll notice that whenever a superdelegate endorses Barack, they read from the exact same script: "The reason I'm endorsing Barack Obama for President is that Hillary is too negative, and Barack is unity."

I kid you not, it is almost always along those lines.  Well, there's a reason for that.  Obama's campaign is very good at controlling messaging and narrative.  And a central premise to their candidacy is the false notion that their campaign is positive and Hillary's is negative.

But if you look at the attacks both campaigns have launched, I think there are only two fair conclusions: (a) Barack's are significantly more negative because they are ad hominem attacks, rather than criticisms of positions or policies, OR (b) Both campaigns have been equally negative.

I suspect this is a reason that Geoff Garin wrote an op-ed recently pointing out the double-standard.  (It's interesting, after all, that he would choose that topic rather than electability, right?)


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:48:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

But if you look at the attacks both campaigns have launched, I think there are only two fair conclusions: (a) Barack's are significantly more negative because they are ad hominem attacks, rather than criticisms of positions or policies, OR (b) Both campaigns have been equally negative.

Both campaigns have gone negative but I haven't seen an attack more dishonest than the "present vote" attack Hillary launched in NH.  That attack completely distorted his policy views and used that to lie about his character.  I've seen a lot of people that defended the Clinton's tooth and nail for 15 years that have been stunned and turned off by what they've seen during this campaign.  I'm one of them.


Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the attack, but what is dishonest about pointing out that he voted "present" all of those times?

As I understand it, the defense to this is that voting present is part of some sort of local political strategy unique to Chicago and does not indicate disinterest.

But that is a case for him to make in response to a factual assertion, as far as I can tell.

Could you help me understand why I'm wrong about this?  You're very reasonable and if this was the single most offensive attack of the campaign season to you, I'd like to understand better.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:18:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

Sure.  

Here's the envelope the mailer came in.  And here's the mailer.  

Hillary accused Obama of being unwilling to take a stand on choice which is a complete lie.  He has a perfect record standing up for choice and the "present" vote was part of a coordinated strategy approved of by Planned Parenthood in Chicago to protect choice.  She lied about his position and his reasons for voting "present" and then used that to say he doesn't have the character or backbone to be President.

She also tricked many in the pro-choice community in New Hampshire into signing a letter against Obama based on the false claims.  This caused massive division.  Keep in mind that a few weeks later she'd be holding a flyer about her health care plan and condemning Obama for attacking her on such an important issue to progressives.  

It was disgusting, and turned me from a neutral observer who would be happy with either nominee into a strong Obama supporter.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

The majority of voters do not agree with you according to exit polls and that includes a good number of Hillary voters and people who think she would be a better president and the reason is not because they have been duped by the media.

There are a lot of 'distractions' as Obama calls them that will be deployed against Hillary if she becomes the nominee but you won't be getting a preview of them from Obama with the excuse that, well the Republicans will do worse.

While Hillary and her new best friends Scaife, Hannity and Scarborugh drone on about Ayers, Wright and Farrakahn you won't hear Obama injecting right wing talking points about the Commie law firm Hillary worked for, the 16 FALN terrorists Clinton pardoned, the 100's of thousands her brother collected to get criminals pardoned or any of an endless list of crap that will suddenly be broadcast non-stop by her current right wing 'friends' if she ever became the nominee.

When given the opportunity to take an easy cheap shot at her over Bosnia in the debate he declined and instead defended her. She how ever was happy to wallow in the mud. It's no secret that the kitchen sink strategy was pushed by the slime ball Penn. There is no Mark Penn in Obama's corner. Obama is a politician and not a saint and is not beyond turning something to his political advantage unfairly but Hillary's campaign has been beyond the pale for a Democrat. Of course the true believers will never see it that way but it is the consensus of opinion among voters who don't spend all there time in the bubble of the partisan blogosphere.


by hankg on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:05:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

Did you honestly just bring up the example of Bosnia during the debate?  Are you aware of what he did within days of that debate, making a liar out of himself and engaging in what I consider to be one of the most tasteless and unethical personal attacks that I have seen since 2004?

You've really painted yourself in a corner there.

And as I said to map, my point is not about voters' perception, but about what the candidates have actually done.  (I guess a less fancy way to say it: reality matters more to me than commentary.)


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:21:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

In all fairness, one person on a conference call made the horrible statements about Hillary and Bosnia, and the campaign immediately denounced those statements.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

Except that the conference call was scheduled for the specific purpose of his making those horrible statements..


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:01:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

If that's true then the person that made that decision should be fired.  



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

And my point is that while Obama has taken a few cheap shots, compared to Hillary's campaign his campaigns behavior has been  positively angelic. The reason Hilary is perceived as the mudslinger is because that is a fact that is blindingly obvious to all but the most rabidly biased observers.


by hankg on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not the length of the campaign (none / 0)

I'd add I have heard more then a few Clinton partisans acknowledge the negative nature of her campaign and claim that that just proves she's tough enough to face down the Republicans. Politics isn't bean bag so deal with it. Of course the same people often freak out when they think Obama has responded in kind.

I really find it hard too believe anyone could deny the negative personal nature of the kitchen sink strategy. It has very little to do with policy differences and everything to do with Obama's supposed unfitness and lack of character focusing on Wright, Ayers, phony distortions of his present votes, kindergarten ambitions, latte sipping liberals, liberal elitists, etc., it's all right out of O'Reilly, Hannity and Rove.


by hankg on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly Obamites (none / 0)

Winners don't yap?

Tell that to Muhammad Ali.


Obama: June 3, 2008. Historic.
by jv on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They're done with her (none / 0)

I join the rush for the exit!  She is going to be labeled NEGATIVE or reframed as NEGATIVE.

People are saying that this is the true Hillary-and it shows what she would be like in the WH.  Now that is a scary thought.  

We are just recovering from a sociopath president-we need a POSITIVE President NOW.

Hillary is proving to many that she cannot fill that bill!


by lja on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:27:10 PM EST

Final time I'm going to say this! (none / 0)

Obama won TX! Period! And NV for that matter!


by LoneStarLefty on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:03:30 PM EST


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