She did, he didn't

Want to understand the last month or so of the nomination campaign? Well, one lens into it is provided by what the candidates did, as compared to two Politico articles about What They Wish They Could Say that were published in APRIL.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/040 8/9564.html
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?u uid=A4B83756-3048-5C12-0041E3B83E0D4634

As a diary on the rec list, citing a Politico story What She Wishes She could Say points out, in April, Clinton wished she could raise questions about Obama's electability.  In particular, Clinton might claim that Obama had problems with blue-collar whites, Hispanics and Jews and that these would persist into the general election.

Guess what? Clinton did that.  What Politico said -- on April 13 -- she could do, but was holding back doing, she went ahead and did it.

And Obama?  What was the strategic path not yet taken Politico described?

Well, it was laying bare all the "baggage" of the Clintons, all the issues about their associations that the Republicans would certainly raise.

This includes old issues, like Hillary Clinton's legal career, which includes lots of cases that never got much public attention even during the Whitewater era.

It also includes new ones, like recent stories raising questions about the web of personal and financial associations around Bill Clinton.

There was a January New York Times story, which did not get the attention the reporting deserved, highlighting how this Canadian tycoon and major Bill Clinton benefactor was using his ties to the ex-president to win business with a ruthless dictatorship in Khazakstan.)

There's the Marc Rich situation, who was pardoned by Bill Clinton and who gave money to Hillary's Senate campaign.

And there's family issues.

He has never mentioned her brothers, even though Hugh and Tony Rodham once defied Bill Clinton's own top foreign policy advisers by entering into a strange investment in hazelnuts in the former Soviet republic of Georgia (they later dropped the deal) and Hugh Rodham took large cash payments for trying to broker presidential pardons.

There are political issues as well, such as the disaster the Clinton years were for Democrats in Congress, and the very real problems associated with Hillary's inability to work with others to get health care reform.

The article GOES ON AND ON WITH A LARGE RANGE OF POTENTIAL ISSUES OBAMA COULD HAVE BROUGHT UP.

And guess what -- He's never done it.

Obama has treated Hillary Clinton with kid gloves, by and large.  A certain diarist takes the Clinton approach -- to go there as a sign she's a real fighter.  Personally, I'm glad I'm supporting the candidate who knows that in a fight among friends, an intra-party contest, there are limits.  

I know he's going to after McCain hard -- He's already doing it. And so I'm proud that in January I switched from supporting Clinton to supporting Obama and that soon, unless sometimes very odd happens, he will be our nominee.



Display:


Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 10)

Amen. Hillary is very lucky that Barack has decided not to get in the mud with her. She has not shown class and I honestly think she is trying to bluff him into bringing up their baggage so that she can claim victim. I'm glad he has not fallen for it but it doesn't mean that the Republicans would be as kind if she had been the nominee.


by sweet potato pie on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:40:24 AM EST

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 7)

Amen. Hillary is very lucky that Barack has decided not to get in the mud with her.
Actually, I think a chunk of her strategy has been to try to get him to do so.  It's actually not bad strategy for a general election:  if you have high negatives and your opponent doesn't try to push your opponent down to your level.  In a primary contest, however, it runs the risk of going over the line, and if your opponent knows what you're doing, it makes you easy to outmaneuver.  But if your opponent is quick to anger, it's a really good approach.  Unfortunately for Clinton, she's using it against the wrong opponent.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

Ooooo - you're right. That happened in South Carolina, but he didn't let it take over.


by Falsehood on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry...but Obama is just as guilty (2.00 / 2)

Here is the fallacy that even the MSM has bought into.

Sorry buddy...HE did the same thing.

He did talk about her cases.  He talked about her job history.  He talked about thier finances.

Obama has been just as negative and scandalous as any other politican in history.

Hope-that they don't see through the charade

Change-absolutely nothing, and try to gain more power.

The new politics...same as the old.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:01:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry...but Obama is just as guilty (2.00 / 1)

I'm going to hold you and the diarist to the same standard:

If you claim someone did something, back it up with quotes.  If you don't have quotes, you don't have proof, and you're just talking out your ass.


UNITY!
by The Great Gatsby on Mon May 26, 2008 at 08:32:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry...but Obama is just as guilty (none / 0)

But did Obama, go into sure buzzwords like "Marc Rich" or "Vince Foster" etc.?  That is not to say that one needs to believe there is anything to these things.  However, these would carry a certain cachet in certain demographics.  

If he was playing moderate hardball he could have pointed out that if she was elected the circus would be back in town (look at descriptions of the conservative "journalist" culture of the 1990s) and these topics would come back up indirectly as part of that discussion.

If he was playing really sleazy he would have had campaign interns dress up as roses and in blue dresses.  He could have called Pres. Clinton a "Bush Enabler" for his personal exploits and resulting "Clinton Fatigue".  These are just 3 vile pieces of campaign theater I could come up with off of the top of my head.

What's gone on is pretty standard in the rules of political engagement (even if one is selling oneself as a new kind of politician).  I'm actually kind of surprised that no one crossed the Rubicon and actually used these topics.

If any of the Senator Clinton topics had been substituted into the ABC News debate (the "Obama issues" one) and Senator Obama had given the same style answer as Senator Clinton did, everybody would be screaming bloody murder.


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry...but Obama is just as guilty (none / 0)

Wow, if he did talk about all these things, it's news to me.  Now it's possible I missed something, but given that I'm a news junky spending significant portions of my day reading print news, following the blogs, watching television news and listening to NPR it must come from some other source I'm not acquainted with.


by Philoguy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 3)

Politico hasn't exactly been unbiased in all this -- Roger Smith seems to get off on writing anti-Hillary stuff. So I'd take anything they say with a huge grain of salt.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:43:22 AM EST

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 6)

The articles aren't by Roger Simon.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

Obviously; I was making a larger point about Politico.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:57:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

Well, you can't judge an entire publication by the writings of one columnist.  For example, the Washington Post publishes EJ Dionne and George Will, a liberal and a conservative.

Plus Simon does more commentary and the authors of those pieces do analytical reporting; these are not the same.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

Politico doesn't like ANY of the Democrats. Politico pushed "bittergate" harder than anybody else.


by elrod on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (1.00 / 4)

exactly, pushing as a valid source only high-lights the diarists desperation and inability to make judgments.


by zerosumgame on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:39:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (1.00 / 2)

ah a RE Politico fan strikes! LOL, another RW troll Id's itself by the "debate by TR" loser tactic :)


by zerosumgame on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 2)

You're such a joke zero.

Great diary politicsmatter.

I'm glad you just pointed at the obvious and didn't add more examples of "questionable" Clinton baggage.

The fact that some of the deadenders think Hillary is has been vetted is evidence of their blind devotion.


We want to see Ivana [Trump] because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture. - Sarah Palin
by spacemanspiff on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:03:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (1.00 / 1)

yeah now march out that great hero No-Facts Novack or Drudge to pump up your story, yeah credibility just drips from you


by zerosumgame on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

And you've obviously garnered alot of respect and credibility for yourself zero. If you actually thought out what point you're trying to make before hand people might take you a little more seriously. Unless of course you've already thought that out and your only goal is to try to be as disrespectful to others as possible, in which case you're still going to look like a horse's ass.


by Djo on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

TR'd for insulting the diarist. (2.00 / 2)


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

Do you think about this tripe before you submit it?


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

If you think Politico is a credible source you are the one unable to think.


by zerosumgame on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:43:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

What is a credible source? NoQaurter?


by Djo on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 4)

It's an opinion piece whose sources are largely public domain or common knowledge.  Do you agree with it, or not?  Does it make any sense to you?

That's a better question than who wrote it, although I'll admit to falling into that trap when someone particularly egregious writes something that gets quoted here.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

except it is false on the face of it. It presumes that no BHO surrogate or supporter has to date tried to use or has used the old WhiteWater crap and/or Vince Foster and or Monica. And that is a lie. those have been tossed in on many blogs by his followers and there have been "dog whistles" of it even from Michelle. So since the premise is false the article is false and it is no surprise this diarist persists in promoting false information.


by zerosumgame on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:42:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Much as your post... (2.00 / 2)

conflates Sen. Obama's supporters with Sen. Obama himself.  If you read, closely, you will notice that the diarist writes exclusively of Sen. Obama not supporters.  You can certainly find examples of Sen. Obama's supporters going way over the top, it is no more difficult to find the same thing of Sen. Clinton's supporters.  


by tonedevil on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:55:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much as your post... (none / 0)

so his wife has nothing to do with him? But of course you flail on Bill just for existing. your hypocrisy is not a shock.


by zerosumgame on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Much as your post... (2.00 / 5)

Post a link!  Evidence, zerosum, evidence.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

do start to pay attention (1.50 / 2)

or are you just lying (still) and know very well the comments scolding Hillary for not being able to control her own house referring to Bill cheating on her? And yes, the significant pause and her playing to the audience reaction shows that that is exactly how she meant it.


by zerosumgame on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, she was referring to her family... (2.00 / 3)

She was saying that she must take care of her own family before she can go on to deal with the WH.  Which is why, right after that sentence she mentions her girls and what they're doing to prepare for the White House.  You can read into it if you want, but that is all you are doing.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:40:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: do start to pay attention (2.00 / 2)

Still don't see a link to back up your garbage accusation.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:05:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: do start to pay attention (1.00 / 2)

well here you go garbage poster, and no matter the 'explanations' of her gaffe and non-apologies they tossed in after the meaning is very clear

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people /features/article_1345956.php/Michelle_O bama_the_new_Teresa_Heinz


by zerosumgame on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: do start to pay attention (2.00 / 2)

You accused tonedevil of flailing on Bill.  I still see no link.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please backup your crap.... (none / 0)

when have I flailed on President Clinton?  


by tonedevil on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 3)

Then narrow it down to the candidates.  Clinton's "hard-working, white Americans" statement is a perfect example of what she did do.  Obama never said a thing about "all the Clinton baggage."


by deminva on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 3)

Did he or did he not bring up all their baggage? It's an easy question and isn't affected by who is asking it.


by Becky G on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:57:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

"All" their baggage? I doubt anyone knows "all" their baggage. And you mean "they" don't you? I'm assuming you read the articles.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:58:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I wouldn't be surprised to find that... (2.00 / 1)

... former US Attorney for Arkansas Tim Griffin has a pretty complete collection of all the dirt on the Clintons in his possession by now.  Why do you think Bud Cummins was really fired, anyway?

That job gave Griffin unlimited and unfettered access to all the old files of all the investigations ever done by the US Attorneys in Arkansas.  All those discredited charges, all the memos, all the investigators' reports, everything.  

At the time Cummins was fired, Hillary was the slam-dunk sure-thing nominee for 2008, and the Republicans wanted to make sure they had everything they could possibly want to leak in October.

Then Obama threw a spanner in their works, but who did the RNC just hire to run their late-start smear shop on Obama?

Tim Griffin.

Too bad for him his Clinton collection will now go to waste.


Ignorance is weakness. Get strong.
by tbetz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:08:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wouldn't be surprised to find that... (none / 0)

The poor guy.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

The only reason Obama doesn't sling more mud is because he tried it -- in the SC debate when he brought up her association with Walmart, to which she responded by bringing up his association with Rezco, which for those who study the details of the two associations paints a much more troubling picture. But Obama is certainly not being a "new" kind of politician by any stretch of the word.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:48:22 AM EST

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 6)

Rezko has proven to be quite the nonscandal, while there are many documented issues associated with both Clintons.

And I have no doubt that the Clintons would have been just find getting embroiled in a mudfest, while Obama has not done it.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:21:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

How is it quite a non-scandal? Let's see what happens in the GE if you consider it quite the non-scandal. The man was a slumlord and political fixer in Obama's own state senatorial district and not only did Obama do nothing to help out his constituents who were living in Rezko's rat and mold infested apartments, but he actually allowed this man to help him buy his dream mansion. If it's not a scandal now, that's only because it's the primary season and you ain't seen nothing yet. By the way, the jury is still out on Rezko -- the trial will probably end up a hung jury, but if it does end in a conviction, it will be a story, even if no one in the Clinton campaign brings it up.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:47:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 9)

Sorry to have to do this, but I just have to know- which one of these people is Tony Rezko, can you point him out for me?

I'm glad to think it's such a problem with whomever is associated with him, of course.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:19:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

And John Wayne Gacy had his picture taken with Rosalind Carter -- that doesn't mean much to me. The fact that Obama had a 17-year association with Rezko, include receiving help on his mansion purchase from the guy -- now that carries a little more weight.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:25:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 3)

Except with the convoluted paths, the associations to Rove, the Chicago Tribune thing, you're better served finding something else to be worried about. The Ayers thing, for example, which the Republicans are/were gleefully ready to use on both our candidates- they didn't differentiate between them on the Ayers issue.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:31:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (1.25 / 4)

Oh, I completely agree that Obama's Ayers connection will be even more damaging than his Rezko connection in the GE -- but I don't know how the GOP could possibly tie Hillary to Ayers, esp. after she (to the shock and horror of Obama supporters) condemned Ayers in the PA debate. Every time Hillary has said anything with an eye towards winning the GE, she's been treated as the most vile politician ever by Obama supporters. Ah youth, is all I can say to that.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:53:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

Ah youth, is all I can say to that.

Now what is that supposed to mean?


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (1.50 / 2)

Just that older voters remember previous elections, and realize that Hillary's supposed "kitchen sink" attacks on Obama are nothing compared to what has gone down in earlier Democratic primaries. Perhaps some people think that Obama should be spared attacks from other Democrats because he's the first AA with a serious shot at the nomination, but that thinking will only hurt his chances in the fall, when the mighty GOP Wurlitzer starts cranking up and doing what it does best, and people who don't follow politics closely are going to say "My goodness, I never knew all that about Obama."

I'm not saying that Obama's supporters are all young, but I do think that those who complain the most about Hillary's tactics during this primary are either young or suffer from poor memories.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:26:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How do you square this... (2.00 / 2)

Every time Hillary has said anything with an eye towards winning the GE, she's been treated as the most vile politician ever by Obama supporters.

...with what you've just posted.

The #1 rule in intra-party warfare is not to damage the party's prospects for the general election.  To take bittergate as an example, how does it benefit Hillary in the GE to attack Obama for that incident?  Answer, it doesn't.

She undermined the point he was trying to make, that Republicans often exploit wedge issues.  By smearing him as an elitist, she was playing into an attack line that Republicans have used before (Kerry) and will likely use again.

You may well be right that other primaries have been far more vitriolic.  I don't doubt that at all.  That still doesn't make attacks like bittergate OK this time around.  Over the top attacks on Democrats were wrong then, and they are wrong now.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:51:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do you square this... (2.00 / 1)

The #1 rule in intra-party warfare is not to damage the party's prospects for the general election.

The rule #1 in politics is to unite rather than divide your constituency. Obama divided the constituency all by himself, by saying nothing positive about Bill Clinton's administration during this entire primary, by allowing and tacitly encouraging misogyny and sexism in the media and among his surrogates, by allowing his surrogates to paint the Clintons (and by extension their supporters) as racists, and by speaking in condescending ways about rural Americans. Honestly, if Hillary hadn't distanced herself from Ayers and the Bitter-gate comments, she simply would not be doing well as she is with parts of the Democratic constituency that the party still probably needs to win in November, even if party officials think they can win without these voters.

By the way, have you seen the latest Rassmussen polling on Kentucky in the GE?

Obama 32
McCain 57

Clinton 51
McCain 42

Blame me, blame Clinton, blame anyone you want aside from Obama's own campaign fumbles. Just don't come crying to me about it in November.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do you square this... (2.00 / 2)

Have you seen the latest polling from Rasmussen in Colorado for the GE?

Obama 48
McCain 42

Clinton 44
McCain 47

That's from a state with one more electoral vote than KY.  Does any of this polling really matter at this early date?  No.  Since you have implied that you have followed many campaigns, you ought to know that.

You did not address my central argument that Hillary unfairly attacked Obama about bittergate using the same smear that Republicans used against Kerry.  She had a lot of nerve doing that.  Like Obama said, "shame on her, she knows better."

Obama no more spoke down on rural Americans than Kerry did against soldiers with his "botched joke."  They both had legitimate points and they both phrased it badly.  Their enemies in both cases jumped on those comments in a smear attempt and for political gain.  The attacks on Kerry at the time were disgusting then and yours and Hillary's attacks on Obama are disgusting now.

I don't care what happened in previous primary cycles.  That doesn't make what happens in this cycle OK.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:20:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do you square this... (2.00 / 1)

Yes, but both all of the candidates are within the margin of error in your poll, whereas they are outside the margin or error in my poll. And when it comes to the GE and the entire electoral map, we are talking about the difference between a gamble and a sure thing, according to all the electoral analyses I've been reading.

Only time will tell. I don't actually want McCain to be president, as harsh as I may sound at times.

I thought I did address the Bitter-gate argument, by pointing out that Hillary simply said what she had to say to distance herself from the impression that blue-collar, rural voters too often have of Democratic candidates (and not without reason) -- which is that they do not relate to people like them. Hell, the fact that so many Democrats have tried to distance themselves from the Clintons, who Washington insiders always viewed as low-class, does not help their efforts in this region of the country. Hillary may have been less than generous towards Obama during the Bitter-gate blow-up, but let me ask you this: When has Obama ever had one kind word to say about Bill Clinton's administration during this entire campaign? His calculated decision to belittle any accomplishment of the Clinton time in office has hurt him as much with voters in this region as his foolish Bitter-gate comments.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

An unfair standard. (2.00 / 1)

When has Obama ever had one kind word to say about Bill Clinton's administration during this entire campaign?

I haven't seen the gratuitous bashing of the Clinton Administration that many here have claimed.

Obama has criticized some things that happened during those 8 years and he has said that good things happened as well.  Take this clip from the Cleveland debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYNxtddLN 8Y&feature=related

In the first minute, Obama says that they accomplished good things under Clinton.  He adds that Hillary can't claim credit for only the good things and then say she wasn't a part of the bad things.  Nonetheless, he isn't denying that good deeds were accomplished, he never has.

You expect far too much from Obama.  You want him to praise the Clinton years when his opponent is running on what happened in those years.  I'm sorry, but it is Clinton's job to tell us why we should vote for her based on her accomplishments, not Obama's job.  You don't see her praising him for his accomplishments in Illinois, or as a U.S. Senator.  You don't see her praising the good things about his message.  I don't think you're setting a fair standard.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An unfair standard. (none / 0)

Watch it again. He never acknowledges any of the good things that the Clinton administration accomplished  -- he merely argues that Hillary cannot lay claim to any good things that may have transpired under Bill's administration while also stating that she privately opposed her husband on NAFTA (even though WH historians have found that she did indeed privately oppose her husband on NAFTA). The instances of Obama bashing Bill's administration are numerous: He said that the Republicans were the party of ideas during the past 10-15 years (i.e., during Bill's administration). He pointedly skips over Bill's relatively peaceful admistration and says that he wants to model his foreign policy on the FPs of Kennedy, Reagan, and Bush Sr. (to which I can only say yuck!). He repeatedly told voters in PA that the past 20 years were a period of unremitting economic misery for small towns, which is patently untrue and a dig at Clinton's economic achievements. I could go and on about all the ways the Obama has slighted Bill's accomplishments, but I'll leave it at that.

It's not a matter of Obama having to speak up for the Bill Clinton's accomplishments. He doesn't have to do that. But by repeatedly slamming the Clinton administration, he alienates voters who are more favorably disposed towards the Clintons. He doesn't seem to realize that party unity is something that is earned, not something that is handed to one like a golden ring by winning the Democratic nomination by any means necessary. Voters often have loyalties that transcend party affiliation, and Obama is going to have to work very hard to win back Clinton Democrats. Judging by his performance this weekend, wherein he allowed his campaign to send Olbermann's ridiculous special comment to every member of the press corps, I really wonder if he has it in him to do just that.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:57:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I saw it live... (none / 0)

and I watched it twice today.  Fact is he acknowledges that good things did happen he just doesn't specify what they were.  I think that after all of Hillary's positive comments about NAFTA, it strains credibility to say that she opposed it at the time.  Clinton likes to mock Obama by saying all he did to oppose the war was give a speech, but she didn't even give a speech opposing NAFTA.  I think that that is perfectly fair.  If she wants to claim those 8 years as her "experience," she has to take the good with the bad.

I don't think that Obama should be expected to praise anything that Clinton claims as an accomplishment.  Just the same as that Clinton should not be expected to praise Obama's accomplishments.  For either of them to do so would be unlike any political race that has ever happened.

The vast majority of slights he has done to the Clinton record have been omissions, not direct attacks.  Where he has attacked it has been a legitimate criticism.  He really hasn't been any more unfair about the Clintons' record than they have about his.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:59:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I saw it live... (none / 0)

You honestly expect her to give a speech to oppose an policy that her husband, the POTUS, is trying to advance?

You have some strange notions about politics if you think any First Lady, no matter how independent minded, would ever do such as thing. There is such a thing as loyalty, and it's not such a bad trait, even if it occasionally causes grief (cue to Mark Penn).


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:31:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, that would be unfair wouldn't it? (none / 0)

Just as it would be unfair to expect someone who is locked in a tight primary battle to repeatedly praise the accomplishments of their opponent.

Besides, its not just that there is no evidence that she opposed it at the time.  She has praised NAFTA repeatedly, most recently in 2004.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:33:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, that would be unfair wouldn't it? (none / 0)

Just as it would be unfair to expect someone who is locked in a tight primary battle to repeatedly praise the accomplishments of their opponent.

I'm not talking about repeatedly praising the accomplishments of their oppoenent -- I'm talking about not repeatedly slagging the accomplishment of Bill Clinton's administration. This is what I don't get -- everyone says that Obama has a lock on the nomination. If that's the case, shouldn't he be acting nicer to the Clintons? Shouldn't he be courting the millions of Democratic voters who are Clinton Democrats? Obama seems politically tone deaf in this regard.

Besides, its not just that there is no evidence that she opposed it at the time.  She has praised NAFTA repeatedly, most recently in 2004.

That's not what Carl Bernstein (who is certainly no Hillary shill) and David Gergen have to say. CB did years of research on the Clinton WH, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his findings. And I defy you to find one of her repeated praises of NAFTA that, in its full context, doesn't acknowledge that while NAFTA has benefited some trades or regions, it has had a less than helpful effect on others.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, that would be unfair wouldn't it? (none / 0)

I'm not talking about repeatedly praising the accomplishments of their oppoenent -- I'm talking about not repeatedly slagging the accomplishment of Bill Clinton's administration.

What do you want from Obama?  Is NAFTA beyond criticism?  Is he not allowed to criticize decisions he doesn't agree with?

You agree that he should not be required to praise the Clinton Years, but why shouldn't he be allowed to point out things that weren't so great.  Clinton's people certainly went through his record with a fine tooth comb and they didn't have much nice to say about it.

shouldn't he be acting nicer to the Clintons?

I think he has been.  I haven't seen him criticize Clinton in weeks.  He's certainly toned it down much more than she has.

And I defy you to find one of her repeated praises of NAFTA that in its full context, doesn't acknowledge that while NAFTA has benefited some trades or regions, it has had a less than helpful effect on others.

In 2004, she said, "on balance NAFTA has been good for New York and America."  I don't see how you can square that statement with opposition to NAFTA, even if she was unhappy with some of its results.

One can hardly praise something as a net positive and then say that they opposed it all along.  It strains credibility.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 27, 2008 at 06:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, that would be unfair wouldn't it? (none / 0)

Is NAFTA beyond criticism?  Is he not allowed to criticize decisions he doesn't agree with?

What the hell are you talking about? It's not that he can't criticise NAFTA -- both he and Hillary can and should. But he has repeatedly mischaracterized his oppenents' positions on NAFTA (this is an especially sore point for me, because I was originally an Edwards supporter and it galled me to no end that Obama declared on the stump that Edwards supported NAFTA while he didn't which is a complete and utter lie). And as to your following claim:

I think he has been [nicer to Clinton].  I haven't seen him criticize Clinton in weeks.  He's certainly toned it down much more than she has.

You do realize that he had his campaign staff send out copies of Kieth Olbermann's blithering special comment re the RFK assassination reference to every single member of the press corps, don't you? Talk about trying to capitalize in the most ogly way on a completely innocent gaffe -- and btw, this was after Clinton apologized for unintentionally stirring up painful memories and after Obama said that he took Clinton at her word.

In 2004, she said, "on balance NAFTA has been good for New York and America."

And here's the entire quote:

I think on balance NAFTA has been good for New York and America, but I also think that there are a number of areas where we're not dealt with in an upfront way in dealing with our friend to the north, Canada, which seems to be able to come up with a number of rationales for keeping New York agricultural products out of Canada. And I think that needs to be given much greater emphasis than it has.

This is entirely consistant with her present position, which is that parts of NAFTA need to be renogotiated.

BTW, you really should take a closer look at what Obama and his chief economic advisor Austan Goolsbee really think of NAFTA and other FTAs. Long before Goolsbee got Obama into hot water in Ohio, economic analysts were well aware that Obama amd his advisor stood to the right of the rest of the Democratic field on free trade. Here's what one neoliberal economist from Britain had to say about Obama and Goolsbee (he. of course, thinks they're great, but any true progressive should feel otherwise):

Goolsbee and Obama's understanding of the free market as a useful means of promoting social justice, rather than an obstacle to it, contrasts most starkly with the rest of the Democratic field on issues of competition, free trade and financial liberalism. Back in the spring of 2007, when the term "subprime mortgage" was beginning its ascent to ubiquity, Goolsbee composed an impressive op-ed in the New York Times, noting that - fraudulent lending practices aside - subprime products are a powerful tool for democratising the credit market and opening it up to lower socioeconomic strata, and had been substantially successful in reducing financial constraints on working-class people. Crack down on fraud by all means, but don't cut off an important avenue of economic empowerment for working people, and most of all don't do so in the name of working people.

The evidence that Obama heeds Goolsbee's lessons is ample, his healthcare plan being but one of many prominent examples. Whereas Clinton has recently taken to pulling protectionist stunts and rethinking the fundamental theoretical soundness of free trade, and Edwards is behaving like the love child of Huey Long and Pat Buchanan, Obama instinctively supports free trade and grasps the universe of possibilities that globalisation opens up, and seamlessly integrates it into his "audacity of hope" theme. As he remarked in a recent debate: "Globalisation is here, and I don't think Americans are afraid to compete. And we have the goods and the services and the skills and the innovation to compete anywhere in the world."

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/dani el_koffler/2008/01/substance_not_style.h tml


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:24:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bottom line. (none / 0)

~The Clinton administration should not be off limits for criticism when Hillary claims it as part of her record.  To dislike Obama for criticizing it is to hold him to an unfair standard.  Its also unfair to credit Clinton with only the successes of her husband's administration, and none of its failures.

~Hillary mischaracterized her own record by claiming to have been against NAFTA from the beginning, when she repeatedly praised it as a net positive.  Either she:

1.  Has consistently opposed something that she feels has been "on balance, good for America", or,

2. She has changed her mind.

If #2, then she should have said so, instead of claiming to have opposed it all along.  That was an overtly political strategy and it is not wrong to call her out for that.

~The Obama campaign probably should not have sent the KO special comment to members of the press.  However, there is no indication that Obama himself signed off on that decision.  The email incident happened Saturday, the same day that Obama said he took Clinton at her word, not afterward.  Also, compare Obama's reaction in this case to Hillary's reaction to bittergate.  Obama was far, far more gracious.

~Lastly, I'm not going to get into a discussion about Goolsbee, or any of Obama's other advisors.  They are not the issue here any more than Mark (big time free trader) Penn is.  This is about the candidates themselves.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:56:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do you square this... (2.00 / 1)

I think we'll all be partying in November, but I guess I'm just an optimist.  You're invited to the election party, Inky!


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

Oh COME ON.

The Ayers thing is RIDICULOUS.  I hope the GOP pushes that.. it will be about as successful as the stuff they tried against Bill Clinton.

The Ayers thing is just too silly for anyone but 23 percenters to care about


by CaptainMorgan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:00:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hold on a sec (2.00 / 1)

Bill Clinton pardoned two of the Weathermen.  They're BOTH tangentially connected to Ayers.

Also it's a 40-year-old nonscandal that the Republicans will lose on if they try to work it.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:05:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hold on a sec (2.00 / 1)

But they both serve 17 years in prison, expressed remorse for their actions, and were model prisoners who, according to the parole board, represented absolutely no threat to the general public. I fully support Clinton's pardon. Ayers, otoh, never repudiated his acts and only managed to escape prison time because his ultra-wealthy family hired the best attorneys that money could buy who managed to get him off on a technicality. And trust me -- this will be made into an issue in the GE.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And context is always important to the Republicans (2.00 / 1)

Your argument is ridiculous.  It doesn't matter how repentant they are or much time these Weathermen did.  The fact that he pardoned two Weathermen is going to be an ad or a talking point.  They're playing for keeps and they don't care what the truth is.  As a older voter, I would think I don't have to tell you that.  They are going to attack us on anything they can grab their hands on.  So don't tell me, the context to it.  It doesn't matter.  Republicans won't care and will attack with it.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And context is always important to the Republi (none / 0)

If you really think the two stories would carry equal weight with middle America, then I am surprised at you. There are no pictures of Evans and that other woman stomping on an American flag in a back alley, there are no recent interviews of them saying if they had to do it all over again they would have set off more bombs, and there were no rich daddies to bail them out of jail and hire the best lawyers money can buy after they got into trouble -- not to mention that Hillary's association with them is much, much more tenuous than Obama's association with Ayers.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:19:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Keep on depending on the kindness of Republicans.. (none / 0)

I don't think that they will be so complete in their description of the events.  Nor do I think they will as kind with the many other Clinton associations and actions.  But I could be wrong.  I guess the Citizens United so on and so forth 527 is going to of course explain the full story.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:52:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

Quit it with the ageism, and immature TRing.  You'll need us just as you say we'll need you if you think that your candidate has any chance of securing the nomination.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:09:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What are you talking about? (none / 0)

You are the one who troll-rated me.

Btw, I don't think Hillary has a chance, because I think the the big wheels in the Democratic party are trying to realign the party for the future. And don't give me cr*p about ageism -- the stuff I've read by Obama supporters about older women voters is absolutely sickening. I'm not in the despised age group, but since I hope to be there someday, I resent it deeply.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:16:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are you talking about? (none / 0)

Yep.  Troll rated for your ridiculous ageist comments.  Sorry about those other people you've seen making comments about older women, but just because you see other people making comments doesn't mean you have to sink to their level.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:43:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are you talking about? (none / 0)

But I explained my comment, and I don't believe that I was being ageist. It just so happens that younger people have a shallower well of memories about past elections, and most of the Obama supporters that I know personally who speak in horror of Hillary's unfair attacks on Obama this campaign have been young voters.

I guess I shouldn't generalize based on my own limited experience, but I don't think I was being ageist; I was just trying to understand why people feel the way that they do. But TR away. It doesn't bother me at all.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

Well, you're not condescending at all, are you? And if you want to labor under the illusion they didn't connect her to Ayers, if you ever get the gumption, go take a look at Malkin or Limbaugh's "sermons" on that very subject. Remember, the rule is, if the right-wingers talk about something bad our candidate did, it's impossible for them to win in the General Election.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think it is so cute how you are still calling... (2.00 / 2)

... Barack Obama's barely upper middle-class house in Hyde Park a "mansion".

You just keep it up!  Maybe some day, someone might believe you.


Ignorance is weakness. Get strong.
by tbetz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

Yeah, keep trying that one ~ it amusing every time someone tries to make something out of that picture!


by Mags on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

I'll bet you any amount of money (ANY AMOUNT) that Rezko isn't in the top 15 things discussed in the GE.

It isn't going to matter then just like it hasn't mattered in the primaries. I can't believe anyone is still pushing it, even here.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:21:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

It's true that the GOP has much more ammo on Obama, and Rezko probably won't crack the top 10 list in 527 attack ad subjects, perhaps even the top 15 list either.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lunacy (2.00 / 2)

Go type "Clinton Rogues Gallery" into Google and see what happens.

They've been digging up dirt on the Clintons for 16 years.  Why do you think that they're so desperate to face her instead of Obama?


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lunacy (2.00 / 1)

Stuff gets old after a while. People have had it with tired old Clinton "scandals" that never amounted to more than a stained blue dress, for which Hillary deserves no blame. A special prosecutor with 4 + years and $70 million to do as much vetting as ever has done on a political family, and that's the best the GOP could come up with. I doubt we'll have a chance to see the GOP feebly try to attack Hillary, but I am confident that it wouldn't have made a dent.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So what you're saying is... (none / 0)

...GOP attack ads won't work this year?

Okay, works for me.  GObama!


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Mon May 26, 2008 at 08:29:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 3)

You're kidding, right? Rezko disappeared when the Chicago Tribune cleared Obama on it.

Wal-Mart is a reality for Clinton. Voters might not care, but it's true that she served on the board and anybody who cares about union issues might be bothered by that.


by elrod on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:31:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

Just as they may be bothered by Michelle Obama's serving on the board of Tree House foods? Wal-Mart was its largest customer last year according to a SEC filing? source: http://www.cnbc.com/id/18815916
by mztower on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:37:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

"Walmart" isn't exactly the baggage that people have in mind.  It's a Democratic primary issue only.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:34:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

Oh?  What baggage could you be hinting at, J?  I thought that Hillary was "fully-vetted".  I certainly can't remember any scandals that she was involved in.  Hmmmm.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:10:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (none / 0)

So what are you talking about? Norman Hsu --that's a good one. What possible scandal, pray tell, awaits Hillary that has not already run its feeble course?


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She did, he didn't (2.00 / 1)

Obama has slung mud - most divisive, will do anything to win, Harold & Louise flyers, falsely attributing quotes to her in his nafta flyers....

just off the top of my head.

And Obama could bring all of those things up because he was courting the Clinton Haters in the beginning.  Hillary was running a very positive campaign in the fall until Obama came out with his slings & arrows.

and you know what?  I am sure there is just as much crap under Obama's covers as Hillary's.  He just hasn't had 50 million dollars spent on him and his family


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:52:28 AM EST

Does the phrase "kitchen sink" (2.00 / 5)

bring anything to mind?


by ReillyDiefenbach on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:04:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does the phrase "kitchen sink" (none / 0)

and it really wasn't thrown.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:06:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does the phrase "kitchen sink" (2.00 / 3)

The NY Times and almost everyone else disagrees.  Good thing it didn't work, eh?


by ReillyDiefenbach on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:20:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does the phrase "kitchen sink" (none / 0)

that is because they are wussies.  Sorry, but if you think that Hillary threw anything at Obama, you are sorely mistaken.

maybe she threw some nerf balls, but not a cast-iron sink.  That is what the GOP will do.  


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:21:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does the phrase "kitchen sink" (2.00 / 5)

Ah, so now we see your view of the world.

Not pursuing scandals and associations is being "wussified."  It's the one with testicular fortitude who is the better candidate.

Not now. Not this year. Not this time.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:25:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does the phrase "kitchen sink" (none / 0)

no, I didn't say that.  I stated that if NYT and other fragile flowers thinks that what Hillary did is oh-so-horrid, they need to get a new job.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:31:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does the phrase "kitchen sink" (2.00 / 2)

The laundry list is long and horrid all right.  Good thing it didn't work.
Obama, the next president of the United States of America.
by ReillyDiefenbach on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:34:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does the phrase "kitchen sink" (2.00 / 3)

Yes of course. All us "fragile flowers".  What do think the exit polls suggest about who attacks who unfairly?  Take a look at this:

Did the candidate attack unfairly?

Kentucky (final vote percentage C65-O30):
Clinton attacked unfairly: 54%
Obama attacked unfairly: 49%

West Virginia (67-26):
Clinton attacked unfairly: 58%
Obama attacked unfairly: 51%

Indiana (51-49):
Clinton attacked unfairly: 65%
Obama attacked unfairly: 45%

Pennsylvania (55-45):
Clinton attacked unfairly: 67%
Obama attacked unfairly: 50%

Texas (51-47):
Clinton attacked unfairly: 52%
Obama attacked unfairly: 35%

Rhode Island (58-40):
Clinton attacked unfairly: 49%
Obama attacked unfairly: 34%

Ohio (54-44):
Clinton attacked unfairly: 54%
Obama attacked unfairly: 37%

Whether you think this is just the result of the media's alleged conspiracy against Clinton or something else, these polls represent the voters' perceptions of how things went down.  Holler all you like about Obama being dirty.  While history may vindicate your position (I don't believe it will, but who knows?), the voters during this primary and general election will not.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:49:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wussies who endorsed Hillary (2.00 / 2)

until her filthy tactics became unbearable.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:32:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wussies who endorsed Hillary (none / 0)

you guys are so in for a surprise with the GOP if you think Hillary's tactics are anything out of the ordinary.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:38:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wussies who endorsed Hillary (2.00 / 1)

That's really beside the point.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your admission that the kitchen sink (2.00 / 1)

was indeed thrown and fell well short.  Not even a dent in the polls.  Good thing it didn't work.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:50:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your admission that the kitchen sink (2.00 / 2)

And Obama seems so freed these days, going after McCain quite strongly.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:53:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain is low hanging fruit (2.00 / 1)

and rotten at his core.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:59:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your admission that the kitchen sink (none / 0)

There was no kitchen sink thrown at anyone.  God, you guys are so easily led around by the nose by the media.  They make up these "themes" like scorched earth and kitchen sink, and all you guy line up and start parroting them ~ as if there is anything behind it!


by Mags on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your admission that the kitchen sink (2.00 / 2)

Here's one:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/po litics/2004203740_clinton26.html

After struggling for months to dent Sen. Barack Obama's candidacy,