The camps

Senator Obama mixed up the names of two concentration camps. He said his relative liberated Auschwitz when instead it was a part of Buchenwald.

Information about Buchenwald, including personal testimonies, photos, maps, and overview information is available from the Holocaust museum here http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lan g=en&ModuleId=10006131

Some on this site have claimed that this was no mix-up, that somehow it was calculated since, the argument goes, Jews would have been more sympathetic to Obama if the camp was Auschwitz, purportedly because that camp is more well-known.

I am a Jew who has relatives who were killed in the Holocaust, with a cousin who was born in a displaced person's camp following the time her parents spent hiding in the woods of Poland, and with an uncle who fled Germany but could not convince the rest of his family to leave; they were murdered by the Nazi regime.

As a Jew, I have to say that no one in the Jewish community would find Obama more sympathetic if they thought Auschwitz was liberated by his great uncle than if they thought it was Buchenwald instead.

It's not like we only know about one of them.  Their names are burned into our memories, along with so many more.  

We know which parts of our family tree were literally burned to a crisp.

We know who hid in the forest or with rescuers.

We know who rose up and resisted.

We know who survived.

We know the many places where it happened. Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Treblinka, Birkenau, Mauthausen, the list goes on and on.

We know which were work camps and which were death camps.

We know where the culling and medical experiments took place.

And we don't give a good G-d damn if someone mixed up a name.

We are grateful of that the camp Obama's great uncle was in was liberated by American troops.

We are grateful that Eisenhower and Patton visited that camp to see it for themselves.

We are grateful that Obama remembers.



Display:


Re: The camps (2.00 / 15)

Isn't it revealing that there were at least two diaries on Memorial Day praising John McCain for his service, but today there are only attacks on Obama for misspeaking about another (and here, completely unheralded) American hero?


by rfahey22 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:50:59 PM EST

June will be a very interesting month on MyDD. (2.00 / 9)

Jerome will either have to come to terms with the fact that he's been leading an anti-Obama site for the last several months or fully embrace the irrelevance of becoming a dead-end blog for Clinton diehards.

Either way, it's going to be fun to watch.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:57:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some commenters just can't hide... (2.00 / 6)

...the truth that...

...deep down...no matter how hard they try...

...eventually it becomes evident to all around...

...that they're really much more of a Troll than they'd like to admit.


by bobswern on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:03:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some commenters just can't hide... (2.00 / 2)

Pure poetry.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

People of Bosnia and Herzegovina (none / 0)

Do you see Obama's gaffe on his grandfather being in any way similar to Hillary Clinton's Tuzla gaffe?

Do you think the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina are grateful to the US for saving them from a similar fate during your nemesis, Bill Clinton's Presidency in the 90s?


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:18:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't find it wrong that you mention those (none / 0)

things and still find yourself supporting Obama with his campaign tactics somewhat reminiscent of those of the NSDAP during its early days?


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:25:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some commenters just can't hide... (2.00 / 1)

oh, pack it in bob


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:12:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Glad to see (2.00 / 1)

you're getting to know yourself better.


by Same As It Ever Was on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some commenters just can't hide... (2.00 / 2)

At this point bob it really doesnt matter.  It's the people that read these comments posted here that are actually interested in what is going on that are coming away with a clear idea of what the facts are.  And what is fiction.


by herenow on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some commenters just can't hide... (2.00 / 1)

Virtual mojo.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some commenters just can't hide... (2.00 / 2)

I'm glad to see you've finally looked in the mirror, Bob.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:58:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: June will be a very interesting month on MyDD. (2.00 / 2)

They might have to hire some seasonal mods for a while.  I do think that some people here will explode in apopleptic rage.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:10:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: June will be a very interesting month on MyDD. (2.00 / 1)

another dkos inspired troll rampage?


by zerosumgame on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:13:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: June will be a very interesting month on MyDD. (none / 0)

Yes, actually, I've notice some trolls do go on dkos rampages. I'm not sure why they dislike dkos so much. Maybe they hate win-win situations....


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:07:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: June will be a very interesting month on MyDD. (2.00 / 1)

maybe it has somr=ething to do with the dkos-type mean-spiritedness that so many dkos type (like yourself) exhibit on a daily basis? Or maybe it's how dkos minions like to plot how to disrupt and destroy other blogs? Nah, can't be...


by zerosumgame on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:52:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: June will be a very interesting month on MyDD. (none / 0)

I think they hate the fact that you only have to click once to go back on DKos, and that you can get back into a thread where you were after rating a comment.  Cheating, really.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:00:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: June will be a very interesting month on MyDD. (2.00 / 1)

Yeah I recently registered here and the format is driving me absolutely bonkers.


by cato on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:07:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

me too. (none / 0)

recently registered, banned for Jessie Christ only knows what, reregistered, still pissed at the format.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:29:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: June will be a very interesting month on MyDD. (2.00 / 3)

Honestly I think it's great that there are no rules here and thus we get to see the best efforts of obvious trolls trying to play both sides against the middle.

It shows that they obviously have nothing.  The arguments have become so thin, and the constant uprating and circular references by a select few, only reduces the credibility of the arguments and those that make them.

Also it shows that they are obviously scared.  It isnt enough to drum up support for their cause in their own echo chamber, they have to come here to try to divide and weaken our side.

The best part though, is that exposing people that come here to this, that are not sure, makes it pretty clear what this election is really about.  It's up to the individual if they are going to embrace change and fight for it, or fall for the constant negativity of those here sowing doubt and fear it.


by herenow on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:15:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'change' of course meaning Obama, right? (none / 0)

wrong..


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 10)

its a non story.  Great diary though and you got a rec from me for what it's worth.  Good luck with the flames coming your way.


by Xris on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:52:42 PM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 2)

Sad actually.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:55:40 PM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 16)

I thought they had sunk as low as they possibly could, but I was wrong.  If the Admins don't step in to stop this outrage... the use of a meme that bubbled up from the right wing cesspool... the specter of the Holocaust to smear the likely democratic nominee... WHAT ISN'T FAIR GAME on this site?

I've emailed the admins about Linfar and the scum she spreads from the hate sites NoQuarter and Hillaryis44.  I urge everyone who cares about MyDD to do the same.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:56:52 PM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 1)

I highly doubt they are going to do anything about the obvious trolls here until this is settled.  Until then, let them go off on their tangents... as I said up thread, the arguments being used lately are so thin, that even people that have no idea what is going on can see right through them.  So having them here actually helps. (as strange as that may seem)

(not saying it is great or anything, it gets tiring and frustrating for many that end up going over the same points again and again... but really, it is clear to see for most what the rational arguments are, and the ones that are not. (and those that consistantly make them)


by herenow on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 3)

If the Admins won't draw the line at smearing the likely nominee with this crap then I don't know what to say about this site.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:38:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 1)

I'm sure they will at some point.  Until then, just think of it as practice for the upcoming real debate.

Those that are arguing the counter point will either once again join us to win the GE, or will follow the others that came here back to wherever they came from.  


by herenow on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:24:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 1)

It seems like they only care about anti-Clinton commenters.  Anyone who supports Clinton, no matter how vile and disgusting, gets a pass.


by ProgressiveDL on Wed May 28, 2008 at 07:47:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (1.50 / 2)

try a mirror someday


by zerosumgame on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:13:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (none / 0)

Well, I'm referring to the moderators of the site.  And they don't tolerate anti-Clinton commenters, even the ones that do so politely.  But vile anti-Obama commenters who are racist get a pass.


by ProgressiveDL on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (1.91 / 12)

Well said.

I find it shameful that the republicans and Hillary supporters have decided to politicize this.

I hope HRC supporters here read this and realize that Obama's great uncle did a great service for our country and for the people held in Buchenwald.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:58:42 PM EST

Please, don't blame Hillary supporters (2.00 / 9)

for the antics of a few goofy fanatics.  Any Hillary supporter who makes hay out of this is a loon.


by lombard on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:41:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please, don't blame Hillary supporters (2.00 / 5)

Thanks.  I needed that.

I spend enough time here to forget that 99.9% of HRC supporters are rational people.  I don't know any HRC supporters in the real world so I have a hard time balancing out.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:45:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lombard, (2.00 / 3)

I take it as an article of faith that the Hillary supporters (on here) are not representative of Hillary supporters in general, people like my own mother.  There are some real head cases here.  I'm sure the same is true of some Obama supporters.

That's one reason it's so silly to generalize too much from the battles on forums like this.  People say silly things like, "I'm not going to ever vote for candidate X because X's supporters are such awful people!"  

How could you ever know that from reading blogs?

I'm against Hillary for policy reasons.  And I suppose I'm against certain people here, too, although I'll keep that part close to my vest.  But people need to remember, places like MyDD and DailyKos are NOT the real world and that arguments that we win or lose here are not decisive of anything.


by Dumbo on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:18:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Take a rec from a fellow Chosen. (2.00 / 16)

We know full well what Buchenwald was.  And we have nothing but gratitude for those who liberated it.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:58:46 PM EST

Buchenwald contained Auschwitz (2.00 / 6)

survivors anyway; that's one of the camps where they sent those who survived the death-march when they mostly evacuated Auschwitz (Eli Wiesel among them).


by bobdoleisevil on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:18:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you (2.00 / 12)

My story is the same as yours. I have a family tree with names of children as young 3 with an asterisk next to their names for "died in Auschwitz, 1944."

Auschwitz is virtually synonymous with the Holocaust in the popular imagination; people substitute "Auschwitz" for all of the death camps all the time. It's obscene to take offense over that.

My guess is that when Obama first said Auschwitz some people didn't know that his uncle did, in fact, liberate Buchenwald. If he had made up the whole story about his uncle liberating a concentration, that would have been a Tuzla-like gaffe. But getting the camp names mixed up is perfectly understandable.


by elrod on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:59:03 PM EST

Re: Marshans (2.00 / 4)

have invaded.


by xdem on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:00:57 PM EST

i dont know what's sadder.... (1.40 / 10)

people criticizing BO for such as stupid reason or your diary for using the holocaust as a theme to advocate for a candidate.

sick.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:05:27 PM EST

oh - and yes - i am a member of the tribe. (2.00 / 1)


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:07:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh - and yes - i am a member of the tribe. (none / 0)

No you're not...you're a Hillary supporter. You aren't part of that tribe.
Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:20:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i dont know what's sadder.... (2.00 / 11)

You really don't know?  Since you spoke out against this one and remained totally silent in the other, I think you have made a decision.  The wrong one.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:09:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks for your opinion. (1.37 / 8)

but in no way do i have to justify to you which diaries i comment in...  and you know what - this diary and your comment are incredibly insulting to people like me who lost almost MY ENTIRE FAMILY to the holocaust.

and the fact that you think it would be an appropriate platform to advocate for a fricken political candidate!  whatever - go along now a recommend - you people have no shame.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:18:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thanks for your opinion. (2.00 / 11)

I don't think it's an appropriate platform.   I'm glad you agree with that.  I wish you had taken Linfar to task for her disgusting treatment of the nontroversy.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:20:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you are out of line here... (2.00 / 4)

I expect everyone, public or private to remember these events... including our politicians. Obama's mention of his great uncle is an admirable reminder... and there is a diary presently on the rec list and a considerable number of people using his statement for political purposes. This diary is open in setting the record straight. It claims nothing for Obama over others. In fact, in claims more for those who perished and more for those who prevented further loss of life. You are not trying to politicize this topic... but you are out of line for accusing others of doing so without cause. Back up, read the diary and don't read it through a frame of political gamesmanship. Then come back.


by Casuist on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no - i think you and all these people that rec'd (1.33 / 3)

this diary are out of line.  i didnt read linfar's diary because - you know what - its a dumb thing to criticize BO about.  but i am assuming it used his comments to criticize BO.  but this diary on the other hand uses the actual horrors of the holocaust to advocate...

It's not like we only know about one of them.  Their names are burned into our memories, along with so many more.  

We know which parts of our family tree were literally burned to a crisp.

We know who hid in the forest or with rescuers.

We know who rose up and resisted.

We know who survived.

We know the many places where it happened. Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Treblinka, Birkenau, Mauthausen, the list goes on and on.

We know which were work camps and which were death camps.

We know where the culling and medical experiments took place.

And we don't give a good G-d damn if someone mixed up a name.

We are grateful of that the camp Obama's great uncle was in was liberated by American troops.

We are grateful that Eisenhower and Patton visited that camp to see it for themselves.

We are grateful that Obama remembers.

using the tragedy of the holocaust (see burnt to a crisp) to advocate for a politician.  yes - politician.  and you are all cheering her on.  well done.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no one is politicizing this diary. (2.00 / 5)

no one is using this diary to compare candidates. I don't know Clinton's history regarding the holocaust. I don't know McCain's. I do know that you are accusing fellow posters of something quite disgusting, and that you should stop. Now.


by Casuist on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This diary points out that the Jews... (2.00 / 8)

contrary to Linfar and the MSM's implications, are not stupid.  We know what Auschwitz was, and what Buchenwald was.  We know the horrors that went on in both places.  We know that this MSM angst about "Oh noes, it wasn't one camp, it was another--what will the Jews think?  Have they even heard of Buchenwald?" is utter crap.  And that's what this diary is pointing out.

It does not advocate for a candidate.  It expresses gratitude to Obama's great-uncle for his service, and to Obama for remembering (in substance) that story.  If it suggested that Clinton didn't remember or value the stories of the Shoah, then yes, it would be advocacy.  But it isn't.  It's common sense.  And I, for one, appreciate that.  

Take your faux outrage and your selective misreading elsewhere, please.  You should be ashamed.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no - i think you and all (2.00 / 6)

My family lost people, too.

I'm not reacting to this the way you are, frankly.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:00:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no - i think you and all these people that rec (2.00 / 6)

I think you're misinterpreting why that was included in the diary.

This isn't an issue of Obama vs. Hillary. It's Obama vs. insidious right-wingers who are trying to use confusion over the names of concentration camps as "proof" that Obama is a liar.

When the diarist states that we are grateful for his great uncle and for his remembrance, it's not a dig at Clinton in the slightesst. It's simply asserting that, in the face of wingnut attacks, we stand by Obama and are proud of his family history.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:22:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no - i think you and all these people that rec (2.00 / 4)

also, I uprated. It's a sensitive topic and it's best that we calm down with the TRs already.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:24:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no - i think you and all these people that rec (2.00 / 2)

I agree. I'm actually glad I had my rec/rate removed by Jerome.  I've created another account so I can rec diaries but will use this one to comment.  



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:33:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

with all due respect... (2.00 / 1)

it's a sensitive topic, and i've defended candaian gal in spirit... but accusing people of politicizing this topic was completely out of line. I think that behavior is worthy of understanding... but an uprate?

People need to think.
Hard.
...before throwing around accusations like that.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:49:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: with all due respect... (2.00 / 1)

well, i was initially under the impression that maybe she was interpreting it as a slight toward Hillary. But regardless, I'm loathe to TR people who don't have a history of actual trolling. We can still debate and criticize one another through our comments before resorting to TRs. (That's just my own opinion; others can set their own standards.)

Now, had her comments been made by certain other, um, less productive members, then I'd be busting out the 1s and 0s.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:55:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

on this point... (2.00 / 1)


We can still debate and criticize one another through our comments before resorting to TRs

...agreed.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:04:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

oh -and... (none / 0)

i believe the diary has changed since i read it to include the second and third paragraphs....


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:17:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh -and... (2.00 / 3)

I think they were there but couldn't swear to it.  I also don't think you said anything here that deserved a TR.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:23:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this will be my last post in this diary... (none / 0)

as i keep getting TR anyway.  in no way is my disgust coming from a partisan perspective. let me be clear - i take no issue at all with BO messing up a camp name.  and if someone had the audacity to post this diary in advocation of HRC i would be just as offended.  

i would also add that the meaning of liberation is a noble and worthy one...  but the difference between this diary and the many others being posted tonight on this meaningless gaffe is that this one uses the actual events of the holocaust to advocate for a candidate.  not only is it exploitative but also demeaning to those that hold these painful events of our past so close to home.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:39:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this will be my last post in this diary... (2.00 / 4)

I honestly don't see how you're getting that interpretation out of it, but it would be less disconcerting if it didn't involve such strong criticism of the diarist. But so be it.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you owe a number of people... (2.00 / 1)

...an apology, before any comment is your "last."


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:51:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no - i think you and all these people that rec (2.00 / 3)

I think you're being very unfair. I wasn't advocating for Obama. My diary was a reaction to tearing down Obama for being an Emperor with no Clothes because he named a different camp.  You have to read it in context.  Of course I think Hillary clinton also remembers.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed May 28, 2008 at 07:27:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thanks for your opinion. (2.00 / 3)

All it takes for evil to win is for good men and women to do nothing. And I've never seen you speak up for the anti-Obama filth that gets thrown here by the racists and demagoguerists like SoCalDarlin, Linfar, LindaSWTF, and eons past, Universal, Fleaflicker, etc.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:03:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

in fairness.... (2.00 / 1)

canadian gal IS criticizing Linda in her diary on this subject and I mojo'd her for it. I believe she is mistaken and she is out of line, but that's exactly what I believe. Her heart's in the right place on this subject.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:08:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in fairness.... (2.00 / 1)

This is the first I've ever seen her take a stance, though, and in the same sentence, she accuses the poster of advocating Obama in the process (which I didn't see).

Besides, I've constantly browbeat, TRed, and fought Obama supporters spewing hate- but I guess I can't expect the same except from a few Clinton supporters around here.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:10:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

sharp divisions... (2.00 / 1)

in perspective aren't easy to overcome, but they're easier to breach with a benefit of the doubt where warranted. There's a lot of posters here on both side I wish would work more towards civility... but it's important to recognize when someone is sincere but mistaken.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:18:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sharp divisions... (2.00 / 1)

You're absolutely right. My bitterness is perhaps warranted, but inappropriate in this case.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:24:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in fairness.... (none / 0)

Not true.  I support Clinton and I've troll rated a bunch of stuff that reflects poorly on Obama.  Like that post above masquerading as an Obama supporter and that Pyro person who masqueraded as a Clinton supporter the other day.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:49:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The former is such a nonissue (2.00 / 1)

just as any gaffe from any politician would be... the later, I am so  with you as well.  Its not cool.  


by linc on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i dont know what's sadder.... (2.00 / 4)

He would not need to advocate for a candidate if other democrats didn't attack him shamelessly.  

At least you realize that Linfar's diary was stupid.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:12:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i dont know what's sadder.... (2.00 / 7)

Please... he isn't using the Holocaust to advocate for his candidate... where in the diary does he make that leap? He's merely correcting the BS that's been floating around here.


by Tatan on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Advocating for a candidate? (2.00 / 11)

Are you off your nut?  All politicsmatters said was that he is grateful that Obama's great-uncle did what he did regardless of which camp it was, and that he is grateful that Obama remembers the Holocaust.  Wow, that's some serious candidate pushing! </snark>

If politicsmatters had implied that Hillary didn't remember or value the service of those who liberated the camps, that would be inappropriate.  But this diary?  Not in the slightest.

This diary isn't sickening.  Your seeming willingness to turn a positive diary into "OMG OBAMA & HIZ SUPORTERS IZ XPLOITING TEH HOLOCAUST!", however, is pretty damn sickening, regardless of your religious affiliation.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:22:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Advocating for a candidate? (2.00 / 9)

Especially since this diary is a response to that absolutely shameless smearing of Obama using the same topic, where CG said NOTHING.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i dont know what's sadder.... (2.00 / 7)

I'm not seeing any candidate advocacy in this diary.  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 2)



by Shaun Appleby on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:06:24 PM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 15)

I'd prefer that this diary NOT be used to trash others, even those raising the arguments I've opposed.  I will be hide rating all comments that I see as over the top.

I'd prefer that we use this incident to remember the importance of using our national power well.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:07:00 PM EST

it may be one of the finest (2.00 / 5)

moments of using our power abroad... contrasting, these days, with some of the worst. Thanks for the diary, and take a rec.


by Casuist on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:11:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 2)

I personally think this issue is ridiculous, but let's not try to make this a question about who properly understands the enormous magnitude of the Holocaust or who more appreciates the sacrifices of the Allied forces who served.

This is only tangentially about the Holocaust. The same argument would ensue about any issue on which Obama has made a factual error--Kennedy, Selma, etc. It's really more about double standards in how misstatements are treated by the press.


by OrangeFur on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:12:56 PM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 7)

I disagree with you because the argument about this went beyond what you describe.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 5)

Exactly.  Thanks for this diary.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:18:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (none / 0)

Well, I didn't see that. To me, it's simply an issue about media treatment and the huge disparity between the way the two candidates are treated.

One minor odd note: I would think that most people would know that Auschwitz is in Poland, and that the Western Allies never made it that far. I guess everyone is a little exhausted.

Otherwise, I'm not touching this with a 1000-foot pole. The slightest mistake and one looks like one is lumping your opponent in with Nazi sympathizers or Holocaust deniers.


by OrangeFur on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:33:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 1)

Except, btw, Selma/Kennedy was debunked. Do keep up with the times, and head over to Snopes. Otherwise, people might think you're foolish for repeating busted talking points.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 10)

Am Jewish.  Wasn't bothered by it.

Auschwitz-Birkinau (sic?), emphasis on "Birkinau" sounds a little like "Buchenwald."  He's human.  It's really no big deal.

Only a flipping idiot would game something like this.  Senator Obama isn't that stupid.

Again, I'm Jewish.  I'm not at all bothered by it.  You try speaking every day with tons of people recording you without saying a few things that aren't right.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:16:07 PM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 2)

It's a net positive to me, personally, because I had no idea Obama had a relative who liberated a concentration camp. The misstatement only draws more attention to the underlying fact than it would have gotten on its own.


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Wed May 28, 2008 at 08:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 3)

Thank you for this...
the rec's you received
are deserved.
"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:29:05 PM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 3)

It's pretty sad how people are using this post as a political footbal to calll eachother out and to point the finger of troll.

I for one think it is not only sad, but it is disgusting and condemn everyone in this thread for acting like this is a matter to play gotcha with.

The point the original diarist made still stands, we honor Obama's great uncle's service in helping liberate a nazi camp whichever one it may be.  And it is in extreemely poor taste to turn this thread into a flame war over who troll rated who.

mojo for the diarist.. rec'd


by Why Not on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:16:39 AM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 5)

Another Jew who had about 2/3 of the family tree disappear over the course of a few years... I would argue that it's obvious the true crime here is not the mix-up of names, but the disrespect inherent in trivializing the Holocaust into yet another game of gotcha. Truly despicable work from the RNC, and I'm sad to see it pushed on the front page of a Democratic website.


by BenD on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:19:26 AM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 1)

to be fair less has had more made of it when Hillary says it.


by zerosumgame on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:22:21 AM EST

Re: The camps (none / 0)

Neither recced diary is satisfactory.

However, there is an obligation upon any public figure using Holocaust references - especially a presidential candidate on Memorial Day - to use care in his/her choice of words and references.

First, Obama does have an Ivy League degree in political science with a concentration in international relations.  One would think the post-WWII settlement in Europe which was the basis for the Iron Curtain and Cold War would have been part of that degree.  Second, Sen. Obama's legal training should make such careful references and exactitude second nature.  Not to mention his entire staff of lawyers and speech writers.

Like Clinton's June '68 blunder -
it was poorly thought-out and inappropriate.
No great evil, but a gaffe, nonetheless.


by johnnygunn on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:22:45 AM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 2)

When Bill Clinton was president he participated in the 50th anniversary commemoration of D-Day.  I was surprised to learn he apparantly had never heard of the assault of US Rangers on Point du Hoc.  Not offering that as criticism, either.  It's just one of those curious things (wouldn't expect 90% of people on the street to know about this, but given that Clinton was president, and is noted for being well-read, would have thought he would have encountered this someplace).

What we're talking about is specialization (and, by definition, no one is a specialist in everything).  While it would be amazing if someone who had studied WW2 in depth didn't know that Auschwitz was in Poland, it's totally unremarkable that someone who hadn't done this wouldn't know the differences between Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau, etc. (Buchenwald, btw, was in the Soviet sector of Germany, the US liberated it but then pulled back).

Btw, did you know that Hillary Clinton apparantly didn't what Red Bull was?  This would have surprised me at one time, but politicians live in their own weird bubble.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You are absolutely correct (2.00 / 1)

Not everyone should be expected to be a WWII or Holocaust history expert.

Which is why I was angry at Olbermann for trying to generate so much sound and fury over O'Reilly's mistaking of "Malmedy" with "Normandy."


by lombard on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:56:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Powerful diary, politicsmatters... Rec'd. n/t (2.00 / 4)


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:24:26 AM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 4)

Powerful diary, thank you.

The fact is that Barack Obama said the wrong name of the camp, admitted that he said the wrong name of the camp, and apologized for saying the wrong name of the camp.  

He is not perfect, and we love him because he's confident enough to admit that.  And he's confident enough to accept that I will firmly criticize him when necessary.


by Pat Flatley on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:46:22 AM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 3)

But, quite frankly, it says infinitely more about someone criticizing Obama for his error than it does about Obama himself.  He messed up the name, and he admitted as such.  Strong leaders admit their errors and move on.


by Pat Flatley on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The camps (2.00 / 2)

great diary

would rec if I could


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:52:07 AM EST

Re: The camps (2.00 / 4)

As a Clinton supporter, it doesn't bother me either. It was a simple mistake. Why lie about something so easily refuted? It's ridiculous. He misspoke.


Hillary 2008!
by New York Democrat on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:58:27 AM EST

Come on (none / 0)

I think this may be blown out of proportion (like RFK-gate) but you can't seriously think that using the word "Auschwitz" was an innocuous slip of the tongue.  This was the same type of miscalculated embellishment that Hillary stepped in with Tuzla (also blown out of proportion).  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:15:52 AM EST

Re: Come on (2.00 / 2)

Wow.  Obama mistakenly naming the camp that his uncle helped free was a "miscalculated embellishment?"

I have an frank question: Do you have relatives who died in the Holocaust?  If so, I genuinely want to exchange emails with you.  I need to know where you're coming from if you can possible respond this way.


by Pat Flatley on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:32:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (2.00 / 1)

"possibly" respond this way...apologies for the typo.

But I really want to contact you personally if you can relate to this.


by Pat Flatley on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:33:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (1.50 / 2)

I'm sorry but there's no intellectual honesty coming from you.  I have Polish and Jewish relatives and that's all I will offer on the matter, not my personal email address.

That said, it doesn't take much to understand why someone would embellish a story (like Tuzla) to, in the heat of the moment, aggrandize themselves just a wee bit for the sake of appealing to a certain demographic.

It would be like me speaking to an audience of GLBT members and saying "My aunt was wounded in the Stonewall Riots" and then saying, "Oh, whooops, I mean a different riot at a different gaybar in Philadelphia that most people have never heard of."

You have to be very out of touch with how politicians operate to not recognize an obvious attempt to score points on the basis of a well known historic tragedy.  And in true-to-form Obama results-oriented style, the only people being called out on this are Clinton supporters who would dare criticize Barack Obama who can clearly do no wrong and is soooooooooo far above everyday Chicago style politics.

rolls eyes


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:52:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (2.00 / 1)

Barack Obama is not above Chicago politics.  If he did not have political skill - particularly the skill learned in the gritty world of Chicago ward politics - he would not be where he is.  He did make it here relatively unscathed in comparison to most thanks to people like Emil Jones and some other Hyde Parkers, but this applies to anyone.  No one in politics is an angel, and there is no one who suggests that Barack, Hillary, McCain, Paul, etc. are angels.  Anything argued to the contrary is simply a straw man.

But that you'd turn an obvious misstatement - he said the wrong camp and admitted it - into a statement on Chicago politics is all I need to know about ignoring your username in the future.  I have no interest in engaging in political point scoring.  Save you hack keystrokes.


by Pat Flatley on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:05:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (none / 0)

This is a stunning turnaround from your earlier attempt to phish for my email address for whatever malicious purpose you had in mind.

I regret that it bothers you so deeply that I don't believe Barack Obama when he says this was an honest mistake.  I don't consider him an honest man and I don't take him at his word.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:12:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (2.00 / 1)

Wow you are paranoid.  Whatever.  We get it. You hate the democratic nominee this year.  Good luck with that.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (none / 0)

You're splitting.

It's a term used to denote an instance where a person refuses to see shades of grey and instead simplified the views of other people as "all black or all white."

I'm sorry that my actual viewpoints are a little bit beyond your sophistication.  Call me harsh, but I have little civility left for your snarky responses here.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:22:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (2.00 / 1)

That wasn't snark.  That was me writing you off as unreachable through reasonable discourse.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:26:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (none / 0)

You wouldn't know unless you tried it (reasonable discourse).  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (none / 0)

I don't understand what you're referring to.  I'd like to email with you and debate the subject, and ideally meet with you personally to debate it if you were in the Northeast.  This is not malicious - I just want to have a very strong debate with someone,  ideally face-to-face, who would suggest what you've done.  What in the heck is wrong with having a debate?  It's what we're doing right now, but I'm considerably more articulate when able to look someone directly in the eye and speak extemporaneously.

I disagree with you, and would like to debate you on our disagreement.  Can you explain the stunning turnaround?


by Pat Flatley on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:17:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (none / 0)

Ok, I mean no offense, but I don't understand why you would value an email or face-to-face debate over something that could just as easily be accomplished here.

I suppose I should be flattered by the attention, but it strikes me as a little undue and excessive.  I've never received a proposal from someone on an political discussion forum who wanted to drive (?) hours to have a "face to face" discussion, especially when we have no previous rapport here whatsoever.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (none / 0)

A forum such as this lends itself to group discussion, as evidenced by this conversation.  This is a very important topic to me, which explains the proposal to engage in a more substantive debate on it.


by Pat Flatley on Wed May 28, 2008 at 08:21:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Come on (2.00 / 1)

The point is that it is not embellishing to use the wrong name. Terrible things happened at both places and it's not as if Buchenwald is unknown.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed May 28, 2008 at 07:28:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Surely, you must see the difference (2.00 / 3)

Obama was talking about a great uncle's WWII experiences (that he may of heard about once or twice as a kid) and confused the names of the camp he liberated.  Hillary was talking about a personal experience and confused (perhaps embellished) the details.


by lombard on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:46:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Surely, you must see the difference (none / 0)

What I wouldn't give to have Barack Obama's license for embellishment.  

My father founded Simon & Schuster!  Ooops, I mean a different small publishing company that no one ever heard of.

I went to Yale for undergrad!  Ooops, I mean a small local private university that many people never heard of.  

Same thing, right?


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:57:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But that would be embellishing YOUR resume (2.00 / 1)

He was just talking about something a relative did a long time ago in WWII.  Nobody is going to choose Obama because his great uncle was one of the GIs who liberated a concentration camp over 60 years ago.


by lombard on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:06:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But that would be embellishing YOUR resume (none / 0)

"Nobody is going to choose Obama because his great uncle was one of the GIs who liberated a concentration camp over 60 years ago."

I agree.

That's why it was a spur of the moment *mis*calculation in my opinion.  Do you see the analogy to Tuzla?

No one was going to vote for Hillary on the basis of her sniper story but she peddled the embellishment anyway.  It was a big risk of her honesty ratings with very little reward on the line in terms of gained appeal.  But she just started doing it anyway.  Horrible miscalculation, and probably the instance in her campaign that I most disliked.  

I see the same thing here.  I don't buy the idea that he inadvertently substituted a lesser known camp with something as universally acknowledged as a historic tragedy as Auschwitz.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:18:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But that would be embellishing YOUR resume (2.00 / 1)

I agree with sentiments lombard stated earlier, but I'll phrase them more crudely.  

This incident makes a great lunatic litmus test and you are failing.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:20:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But that would be embellishing YOUR resume (none / 0)

See below.

Crudeness from you?  Oh what a surprise.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:02:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe somebody told him it was Auschwitz (2.00 / 2)

Uncle, aunt, grandfather or grandmother, mother, and he didn't think or know to question it.  Stories have a way of getting confused after they go through a number of people.

Hillary's confusion, although more serious in nature, didn't seem to hurt her that much either as she won the second half of the season.


by lombard on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:29:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe somebody told him it was Auschwitz (none / 0)

I don't think it's a big deal either.  My responses on this came from an angle to compare the faux outrage on Hillary's RFK to inflated comments on this.  They were misconstrued and before long I ended up academically guaging the g