The VP pick and the 2012 strategy

Hillary Clinton's vp push is now in full swing.  Yesterday she volunteered to a group of NY legislators that she'd be on the ticket and now both Lanny Davis and Bob Johnson are working on it as well, Davis with a petition and Johnson with an effort with get the Congressional Black Caucus to promote the idea.
[see http://thepage.time.com/2008/06/04/they- want-you/ ]

What's going on?

Well, first of all, as has been reported in various places, the Obama folks have already told Clinton that she won't be on the ticket. I heard it myself from someone who works for the national campaign.  So, I doubt that she will get the call.  

What she did yesterday made a vp slot much less likely -- stepping on his day of triumph with all sorts of manufactured stories, like a) the leak she was going to concede, b) the campaign pulling that story back, and c) Clinton herself telling state legislators that she would be vp. She then went out and made the same tired, discredited claims about how she could win and used flawed numbers on the vote, even claimed that SD was the last primary. She also claimed that she was in it for the "18 million," as if Obama won't work for those folks, too, pursuing nearly identical policies. All that meant that last night the pundits were talking about her nearly as much as him. That night could have been a huge use of free tv for the general election, with packages about Obama's life story and discussions of how he won the nomination.  

Second, what Clinton is doing is working for 2012. It used to be that saying that was so appalling that no one wanted to do it. But now we know it's so acceptable that a prominent diarist here makes it a key part of her diary.  The Clintons and a subset of her supporters (I believe they are a minority) say that they will be working for Clinton for president in 2012. So they are fine with an Obama loss - and all this vice-presidential talk is a way to make this happen.

If Obama doesn't pick Clinton, and as I said in point one, I doubt he will, the outrage machine will crank up.  They will claim that the "18 million" won't vote for him, which is pretty unlikely.  (I know many Clinton supporters, mostly women over 50, and there's only one who said she might not vote for him and I think she'll change her mind.) So the small number of Clinton supporters who are most committed based on personal loyalty will make a lot of noise, distracting the campaign. And, who know, in a close state, their votes could matter.

Another point: Were Obama to pick Clinton under these circumstances, it undermines him. I would ask, and I think a lot of others would, too, if he can't stand up to the Clinton machine, how can he stand up to dictators and national security threats? And it undermines his message of change.

Frankly, I don't think the Clintons want the vp for Hillary that much. They would face quite a lot more scrutiny, from the sorts of things raised in the Todd Purdham article about Bill's relationships with women to a whole lot of vetting on finances. You may not think that they should face that vetting, but it will happen. They would have to deal with that and so would the rest of us.

So, this is more than a kabuki dance. It's power politics and it's aimed at undermining the Democratic nominee so that Hillary can run in 2012.

I'm a former Clinton supporter who switched to Obama after the Iowa caucuses. I argued for her on many occasions. But now our country's future is at stake. If the nominee is undermined and the Republicans hold the WH, our country and indeed our world is in greater peril.  And I don't like it a bit.  



Display:


Re: The VP pick (2.00 / 2)

As always i really enjoy your unity threads.  But thanks for validating my view that BO supporters will never quit smearing HRC.

david


by giusd on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:39:33 AM EST

Re: The VP pick (2.00 / 2)

How is this a smear?  

Clinton did step on Obama's day yesterday. This is unprecedented.

And you have a diary on the rec list right now by mydd's most popular blogger calling for 2012 as the year for Clinton.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:41:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Like when Obama (2.00 / 1)

stepped on Clinton's big primary wins by announcing Edward's endorsement?  Come on....you act like your guy has clean hands...you don't really believe that do you?


by emmasaint on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:01:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Like when Obama (2.00 / 2)

There wasn't big news that day. She had won the night before. Obama clinched yesterday, which is normally a time for lots of free media for the presumptive nominee.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:08:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Its not a smear when its on tape (none / 0)

Very classless speech last night by HRC and dropping hints about the VP  She was stepping on a historic moment, for the first time a western industrialized nation has nominated a person of color for president.

That is not the type of person you want for VP


"You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
by xenontab on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:47:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its not a smear when its on tape (2.00 / 1)

I know...she should know that she should just sit down and shut up like a good little girl while the men strut and preen...Bad girl


by emmasaint on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its not a smear when its on tape (2.00 / 1)

Making this about gender is rather absurd.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:08:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, I remember that (none / 0)

part in Obama speech -- oh, wait a minute . . . .


by gchaucer2 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:34:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its not a smear when its on tape (none / 0)

Ridiculuous, of course.

She should concede and try to help Obama win--as would any decent, normal politician of any party.


by Rationalisto on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:25:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No she should (none / 0)

Acknowledge that she has lost on anyway you can count the delegates now.  Not doing that just because of her gender sets feminism back..  It also dooms her chances at a VP and lessens any input she would like to have in an Obama administration

Contrary to some opinions here, there are other members of the party besides her


"You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
by xenontab on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:10:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton is smearing herself. Nothing shows "unity" and "class" than making a talking points-filled campaign speech the night we get a nominee.

Obama's speech was about us, us, us. He even reached out to Hillary on their most prominent difference.

Hillary was me, me, me. I will not be making any decisions tonight, except to ask you to go to my website, and here's why I "really" won this thing, and so on and so on...


by Reeves on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:04:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

It's things like this that cement the idea that I will never, EVER, vote for Hillary Clinton. Every decision she has made during the entire campaign has always been about what is best for her. If anyone here can name one instance of sacrifice or compromise, I'd love to hear it.

I'm greatly sorry to all the Clinton supporters who have been so gracious the past week or so. If the purpose of her speech was what it is said to be, I can't pretend this isn't an argument-settler for me. Chicago-style dirty politics my ass.

Obama has no choice but to reiterate offers he's already made and just leave them open while he focuses on McCain. She can't really do much, because she needs the Democrats that will be backing the candidate this year, and she'd be running against McCain in 2012 anyway. I do think Obama should remind voters of how supportive John McCain has actually been of Hillary and Bill Clinton.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:51:31 AM EST

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (2.00 / 1)

Back at you...so don't bitch when I won't ever, ever, never vote for Obama - 'Kay?


by emmasaint on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:02:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

Fair enough. But understand that your argument about her getting his supporters in 2012 will not hold water. Unless she shows some grace, she's done.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:12:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You guys are too much (2.00 / 1)


Nothing but contempt for Hillary,

Poor Obama, you are like a curse he just can't overcome. Whatever nice things he says about her are meaningless with a bunch of crazies like you running around.


by TaiChiMaster on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:00:21 AM EST

Re: You guys are too much (2.00 / 1)


He need her on his ticket if only to shut you up
by TaiChiMaster on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:01:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys are too much (2.00 / 1)

Why do you have to resort to name calling?

Perhaps you could try engaging my argument with your own.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:09:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys are too much (none / 0)

I need some air. I'm off of here for the day. Like I said, I had been moving past my negative perception of Hillary for months, and in one fell swoop, I realized I had been right all along. I feel sick to my stomach.

Well, not that sick. It's only political junkieism, after all. :-)


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:16:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys are too much (none / 0)

Just a troll. Never debates anything.


John McCain wants to make abortion illegal
by Lost Thought on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys are too much (none / 0)

BULL. SHIT.

We are discussing the words that came out of Hillary's mouth. Leave the rest out of it and talk about the candidates. And the only way you can compete in a contest of honor at this point is by not limiting your argument to just your candidate.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:14:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys are too much (2.00 / 1)


I rest my case...

Good luck for the general, you guys are doing a great job


by TaiChiMaster on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys are too much (none / 0)

Great, I hope you have a good time at the grocery store, when you yell at the manager because the customers are rude to you.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:43:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You guys are too much (2.00 / 1)


I believe you are having things backward.
by TaiChiMaster on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:44:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

Give it to her...  that way, it sabotages her 2012 strategy, and then what is she going to do?  We can play games, too.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:09:22 AM EST

Despite projecting an anti-unity spirit (none / 0)

diaries like this do serve a purpose - confirming that the Obama campaign has dead enders too, and identifying them.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:10:41 AM EST

Re: Despite projecting an anti-unity spirit (2.00 / 2)

You're not a deadender if your candidate actually, you know, won.

Why not try engaging the argument instead of name-calling?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Continually slamming the Clinton's (none / 0)

to their supporter's faces is the biggest obstacle standing between us, and at this point, your side of the equation has considerably more lose than mine.

There simply isn't another person anywhere in the country who could be as competitive for Obama as she was against him, and combined with an equal number of passionate and dedicated supporters from nearly every critical swing state, Hillary has got to be at the top of Obama's V.P. short list, and then there's everybody else.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:36:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Continually slamming the Clinton's (none / 0)

Pffffft.

We have the SAME SIDE OF THE EQUATION.

Hellooooo? It's called being Americans who don't want four more years of this madness?

I don't know why you see this as a my-side/your-side game. It's not. This is life and death (literally, for some).

You want to big up her achievements? Great. It was one of the closest nomination finishes ever. But she  lost. We have more important things to do than soothe her ego or those of her supporters, and we don't have a lot of time to do it in.


by Reeves on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:09:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Continually slamming the Clinton's (none / 0)

Dismissive drama is not a winning strategy, but have it your way.

You did nothing to win over my support for Obama just now.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:41:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

Hard to be a deadender when you back your party's nominee, and he is going to win, no?


by Reeves on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:14:18 AM EST

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (2.00 / 1)


Good for you...

Anyway I am not surprised, I knew the somewhat conciliatory tone that prevailed yesterday would not survive even a hint of Clinton wanting to negociate her support... like any other politician in her position would, but you know... its clinton...

Let's see how far this attitude of yours will  get you.


by TaiChiMaster on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:41:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

Look, I'm all for Clinton negotiating support. It should have been done in back channels and sealed up by yesterday.

Despite that Obama's speech made a public gesture toward her anyway. By contrast, she is publicly insulting the man and his accomplishments.  She is keeping open the divides of the party, while he is openly inviting her for unity with the healthcare offer.

And only a foolish politician would do this because her leverage is perishable. By showing out, she is knocking off what she could possibly offered (since it can't come at the barrel of a gun to the head). Additionally, she's killing party support she would need for any future bids.

Bad ideas all around.


by Reeves on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:05:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

And therein lies the problem... "negotiate her support."  She's a Democrat; its her duty to support the Democratic nominee.


by XoFalconXo on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:09:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)


Yeees, contenders to the nomination never negotiate their support, even if they are very strong.

There really is a "Clinton Rule"


by TaiChiMaster on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:16:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

Examples?


by XoFalconXo on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:28:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)


You tell me.

Find me a contender in any election who gets more that 40% hell 30% of the votes and doesn't negotiate his support.

Give me One.


by TaiChiMaster on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

Nice try.  You made a statement you can't back up.  And then when you get called on it, you try to get me to prove the converse.  Its her duty to support the Democratic nominee.  If she doesn't, that makes her, well.. Joe Lieberman.


by XoFalconXo on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:37:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)


I assume that you got nothing as well. We are busy people with jobs after all, who has time for this anyway.
by TaiChiMaster on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:12:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I won't repeat your points (none / 0)

but just one thing:  I find it cynical to inflame hope in good people -- those who volunteered, worked their asses off and believe in Sen. Clinton.  She is making a deal for herself -- the best deal she can get, and she knows damned well that she isn't going to Denver, isn't going to get the VP slot and possibly not be offered a cabinet post.

All this deal making, while encouraging her supporters to chant, "Denver" as if that is going to happen.  That kind of cynicism, which is part of politics as usual, is demoralizing.


by gchaucer2 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:43:09 AM EST

Re: The VP pick (2.00 / 1)

Re: Perspective

I have never seen a group of grown-ups more scared of someone, Clinton, the Democrats would have fiercely supported, had Obama not run.  It is humorous and sad.

In that same respect, most of us would have given our right arm to have McCain instead of Bush these last two Presidential cycles.  We should all get some perspective.

.
.
"Pushed around"

At the very least, you act as a leader and do what the old adage says: ' keep your friends close but your enemies closer."

.
.
"He doesn't need her"

I believe it is more serious than that.  Her being in the race has kept "gut" voters identifying with the Democrats, especially if they still believe she may be able to mitigate his perceived apathy to them through a joint ticket.  If and when that hope is lost, I believe the polls may show a much higher defection rate than previously observed.

Voters would rather not vote for a Republican at this point, but McCain passes the "gut" check and is just enough of a repudiation of the current administration to allow that swing.

.
.
Re: Personal and professional strength.

Additionally, Obama is not personally weak, if anything he is perhaps too stubborn on occasion.  And, in either case, there are at least two aspects of weakness, personal and professional; attacks against Obama have been for his professional weakness, or, in other words, lack of experience and savvy.

I believe that picking Clinton as Vice President shows both personal strength and professional strength, while not picking her shows just the opposite.  Personal strength relates to countering the argument that he isn't able to deal with her and her husband.  Professional strength relates to countering the argument that he is a bound candidate beholding only to the left and unable to grasp realities of a centrist nation.

I am certainly not a true believer and have many reservations, but I believe Obama will shortly show strength by selecting Clinton as his Vice President on a unity ticket.

.
.
____
Clinton keeps base together & sets up firewall, as her first VP duties for Obama.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/6/4/71259 /99898


by Liame on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:52:18 AM EST

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

no one believes 18 million would not vote for obama.

but it's possible around 30% won't vote for him, at least that's what the exit polls say.

So this could be around 5-6 million and that's quite a coalition, certainly bigger than the christian coalition, which leads me to believe if hillary is not on the ticket, McCain will make a wide turn LEFT to go after this group who is open to voting for him.


by nikkid on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:21:48 AM EST

Don't smear Bill with Purdam trash? (none / 0)

Either you are an idiot or a Clinton hater. Obama must not commit the same mistake that Gore did. If Gore let Clinton campaign for him we never would have Bush. As a Clinton supporter I do not think Hillary should be on the ticket with Obama.


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:41:28 AM EST

Re: Don't smear Bill with Purdam trash? (none / 0)

Obama will not distance himself from the Clintons unless they force him to.  But I am curious, why don't you like HRC as VP?


by haystax calhoun on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:59:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't smear Bill with Purdam trash? (none / 0)

She should be his VP only if he really wants her. So far Barack and Michelle have shown no such inclination. I do not believe Hillary really wants to be his VP either.


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:23:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

As much as I hate to say it, recent events have conspired to reaffirm some of my lingering suspicions about this tactic.  Though HRC did not need to concede last night, and we can all accept that she needed some space for thanking her constituents, her talking points did undermine Obama's win.  And the whole VP thing is playing out exactly as I hoped it would not.  

Too much chatter to ignore here folks.  HRC is leveraging for something.  I can accept an Obama/Clinton ticket, and can see the benefits.  So maybe HRC really does want it?  Surely she believes in the benefits.  But this is one helluva way for her to be making her case.  

If this is really about 2012, God help us.


by haystax calhoun on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:56:41 AM EST

Re: The VP pick and the 2012 strategy (none / 0)

It is unfortunate that Sen. Obama has let things get to this point.  It has been obvious for months that Hillary was open to the VP position.  It appears that Obama did and does not want her on the ticket.  He made a calculated gamble that he would win by enough that there would not be credible pressure to force him to accept her.  That calculation was incorrect.  She is still a formidable force in the party and must be dealt with.
On the other hand, I was disappointed in the tone of her speech last evening.  It was an historic night and I felt she should have acknowledged that in some way.  Her need to force the issue is driven by her belief that if she doesn't, she will be shoved aside.
IMO, she wants the VP spot so she can mend fences with African Americans to position herself for 2016.  I believe that she has always understood that if she didn't win this time, she would have to take 2nd place for 8 yrs and she is willing to do that.
Together we WIll make history.  Obama/Clinton 2008
by Demo Dan in Dayton on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:51:23 AM EST


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